How do you get from A to B?
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How do you get from A to B?
Just a quick poll type thing (can't seem to find the poll button anymore). I'm just interested to know what you guys use these days to get from departure to destination.
I mainly use area Nav (RNAV)...or radio nav along with a cross check on the map every 10mins or so (or more frequently when there's loads of shaded areas around the bit I am flying!).
- Radio Navigation
- GPS
- Basic VFR Map Reading
- Full on PLOG, Timing, Dead Reckonin'
Which one are you!?
I mainly use area Nav (RNAV)...or radio nav along with a cross check on the map every 10mins or so (or more frequently when there's loads of shaded areas around the bit I am flying!).
- Radio Navigation
- GPS
- Basic VFR Map Reading
- Full on PLOG, Timing, Dead Reckonin'
Which one are you!?
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1 - Radio Navigation
2 - Full on PLOG, Timing, Dead Reckonin'
3 - Basic VFR Map Reading
4 - GPS
... in that order!
Definitely want to keep looking out of the windows, but also not happy unless I know exactly where I am!!!
DRJAD
2 - Full on PLOG, Timing, Dead Reckonin'
3 - Basic VFR Map Reading
4 - GPS
... in that order!
Definitely want to keep looking out of the windows, but also not happy unless I know exactly where I am!!!
DRJAD
Last edited by DRJAD; 24th Apr 2003 at 19:38.
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Mixture of RNAV / radio NAV as well as plain old visual / landmarks etc. I think I prefer it when I can plan via VORs, and on forthcoming trip in an aircraft with a KNS-80 am planning to use the RNAV syntheitc waypoints to the full (no GPS in this a/c).
Why do it if it's not fun?
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If I'm going outside the area I know, then usually Ded Reckoning with a full plog. Otherwise purely looking out the window.
The only navaid my aircraft has is a GPS which incorporates a not-very-good VOR receiver. I've only used it in anger on three occassions. Two times were when the vacuum pump was broken, and I used the moving map to confirm that I was heading in the right direction because I wasn't confident about compass turns.
The other one was when I was flying with another group member who wanted to play with it while I flew (we programmed in our route, and used the CDI to confirm we were on track - would take me ages to figure out how to do it again, and we only managed to do that because our turning point happened to already be in the database). Was bl00dy boring - won't bother doing that again. Looking out of the window and at a map is much more fun.
Only time I've ever really needed to use nav-aids was flying across the Californian dessert in 8 miles viz - nothing within 8 miles to confirm my location, so used VORs instead. Of course that's all changing now I'm doing my IMC rating - but I don't plan on changing the way I fly the Europa in VMC.
FFF
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The only navaid my aircraft has is a GPS which incorporates a not-very-good VOR receiver. I've only used it in anger on three occassions. Two times were when the vacuum pump was broken, and I used the moving map to confirm that I was heading in the right direction because I wasn't confident about compass turns.
The other one was when I was flying with another group member who wanted to play with it while I flew (we programmed in our route, and used the CDI to confirm we were on track - would take me ages to figure out how to do it again, and we only managed to do that because our turning point happened to already be in the database). Was bl00dy boring - won't bother doing that again. Looking out of the window and at a map is much more fun.
Only time I've ever really needed to use nav-aids was flying across the Californian dessert in 8 miles viz - nothing within 8 miles to confirm my location, so used VORs instead. Of course that's all changing now I'm doing my IMC rating - but I don't plan on changing the way I fly the Europa in VMC.
FFF
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FFF
I assume you always insist on about 10K's visibility when flying dead reckoning/using map? I was in the Seneca yesterday and all the radio nav equipment was a bit innacurate, the vis was bout 8K and I was finding it hard to put map to ground.....
I assume you always insist on about 10K's visibility when flying dead reckoning/using map? I was in the Seneca yesterday and all the radio nav equipment was a bit innacurate, the vis was bout 8K and I was finding it hard to put map to ground.....
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Not at all, OBK.
If the viz is on the low side, simply fly a DR tack for a certain amount of time. Take a good look at your chart and decide in advance what features you're going to use to identify your position - line features are particularly handy since you'll definitely overfly them - but if you miss a feature, particularly in low viz, don't get stressed about it, just wait for the next one. It might also be worth routing slightly differently to ensure that you overfly easily-identifiable locations such as large towns, depending how confident you are, and how far off track this is going to take you.
Like I said, the only time I have been unable to find enough features to be happy was in the desert. And since I live too far from the desert to make a habit of flying there, I view that as the exception rather than the rule for my type of flying. I've flown a hundred miles or more in 5km viz without any trouble at all. If the viz really is that low, I'm generally more worried about it decreasing so that I have trouble maintaining straight+level and spotting traffic than I am about navigational problems - I would stay on the ground or near my home airfield unless I had confirmed reports that it was improving.
FFF
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If the viz is on the low side, simply fly a DR tack for a certain amount of time. Take a good look at your chart and decide in advance what features you're going to use to identify your position - line features are particularly handy since you'll definitely overfly them - but if you miss a feature, particularly in low viz, don't get stressed about it, just wait for the next one. It might also be worth routing slightly differently to ensure that you overfly easily-identifiable locations such as large towns, depending how confident you are, and how far off track this is going to take you.
Like I said, the only time I have been unable to find enough features to be happy was in the desert. And since I live too far from the desert to make a habit of flying there, I view that as the exception rather than the rule for my type of flying. I've flown a hundred miles or more in 5km viz without any trouble at all. If the viz really is that low, I'm generally more worried about it decreasing so that I have trouble maintaining straight+level and spotting traffic than I am about navigational problems - I would stay on the ground or near my home airfield unless I had confirmed reports that it was improving.
FFF
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I'm with FFF on this one - plog or visual. I'll tune in a convenient navaid as a backup if there is one, but I'll only use it as a check of where I am, not for primary navigation.
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The lessons in VOR/DME/ADF changed the way I fly! Still like to be able to pinpoint on a map where I am, and stil PLOG properly etc. But RNAV is my prefered choice.
However proper DR is soo satisfying! flew from EGKA to Sandown the other day, only a short flight but got there sans rnav, gps etc within a minute of my "guess" - sorry estimate!
However proper DR is soo satisfying! flew from EGKA to Sandown the other day, only a short flight but got there sans rnav, gps etc within a minute of my "guess" - sorry estimate!
Not so N, but still FG
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I look out of the window, look at the map, and look at my watch. I have my headings and times on my knee and on my map, but rarely write anything down once in the air.
I'm not being deliberately luddite, but I still haven't found the time to learn how to get the best out of the GPS in my aircraft (it has no radio navaids), so I mostly ignore it (an occasional glance at the display to see if the EG code for an a nearby airfield is the one it should be). I know that I should be able to do wacky things with it, use it as a virtual VOR and so on, but the manual is bigger than the POH for the aeroplane. The POH has better jokes as well.
I have only used VORs once outside training and that was in a rented aircraft with a VOR in featureless northern France, where I found that radial cross cuts gave me a good fix.
I agree that DR is great fun when you get it right. I remember the first time I did it in a yacht, crossing the Straits of Gibraltar at night and finding the harbour. It's just as good in an aeroplane. Always pleasant to say "the airfield should be coming up...just now" and find that it is.
I'm not being deliberately luddite, but I still haven't found the time to learn how to get the best out of the GPS in my aircraft (it has no radio navaids), so I mostly ignore it (an occasional glance at the display to see if the EG code for an a nearby airfield is the one it should be). I know that I should be able to do wacky things with it, use it as a virtual VOR and so on, but the manual is bigger than the POH for the aeroplane. The POH has better jokes as well.
I have only used VORs once outside training and that was in a rented aircraft with a VOR in featureless northern France, where I found that radial cross cuts gave me a good fix.
I agree that DR is great fun when you get it right. I remember the first time I did it in a yacht, crossing the Straits of Gibraltar at night and finding the harbour. It's just as good in an aeroplane. Always pleasant to say "the airfield should be coming up...just now" and find that it is.
Last edited by FNG; 25th Apr 2003 at 17:18.
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1. - Full on PLOG, Timing, Dead Reckoning -85%
2. - Basic VFR Map Reading - 10%
3. - Radio Navigation - 3%
4. - GPS - 2%
I am still amazed at how well dead reckoning actually works. And how quickly I get 'lost' without a decent PLOG on my knee.
Being a CAA PPL I have had no training in RNAV (I think JAA includes a bit?) but if my rented aircraft has a VOR I tend to play with it, but not use it for serious navigation (I don't know enough morse to check the ident, for example, but at least I know I don't know, if that makes sense!)
I keep a cheapo handheld GPS jobby in my flight bag, just in case, but on the couple of occasions I have chosen to switch it on (after deviating from PLOG for some reason and being 'temporarily unsure of position') I have sussed my location from the map before the GPS has acquired enough satelites (sp?) to be useful.
TG.
2. - Basic VFR Map Reading - 10%
3. - Radio Navigation - 3%
4. - GPS - 2%
I am still amazed at how well dead reckoning actually works. And how quickly I get 'lost' without a decent PLOG on my knee.
Being a CAA PPL I have had no training in RNAV (I think JAA includes a bit?) but if my rented aircraft has a VOR I tend to play with it, but not use it for serious navigation (I don't know enough morse to check the ident, for example, but at least I know I don't know, if that makes sense!)
I keep a cheapo handheld GPS jobby in my flight bag, just in case, but on the couple of occasions I have chosen to switch it on (after deviating from PLOG for some reason and being 'temporarily unsure of position') I have sussed my location from the map before the GPS has acquired enough satelites (sp?) to be useful.
TG.
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A track line, with half distance marked, full tanks and a watch. A GPS if going to a corner of an obscure farmers field. There is a certain amount of pride to be taken in DR - its a skill that I feel GPS is eroding.
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I learned VOR nav for my night and VFR-OTT ratings, but the airplanes I fly are considered unusually well-equipped if they have a functional DG, so usually it's pure pilotage for me.
Last year I used a GPS for the first time, while flying in Oz with GOANA ... pretty slick, but once we were airborne I was forbidden by Mrs. MLS to touch any of the buttons, for fear that I would inadvertantly shut it down and the plane would fall out of the sky!
Last year I used a GPS for the first time, while flying in Oz with GOANA ... pretty slick, but once we were airborne I was forbidden by Mrs. MLS to touch any of the buttons, for fear that I would inadvertantly shut it down and the plane would fall out of the sky!
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I follow the line on the chart - distances, brgs, timings all on chart.
If I have never been there before I use quarter mil - if familiar with destination, half mil!
Folding and unfolding charts in a single seat, low stability toy is quite fun!
Stik
If I have never been there before I use quarter mil - if familiar with destination, half mil!
Folding and unfolding charts in a single seat, low stability toy is quite fun!
Stik
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distances, brgs, timings all on chart.
And its OK on the laminated UK maps, but how do you manage this when using foreign maps which in my experience are generally paper based (France, the Jeppesen Maps, Australia...)
Andy
Not so N, but still FG
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I bought a quarter mil chart once but found it a faff to use in practice. Too much info, and you get to the fold too quickly. My wife liked to look at it whilst I flew from the half mil. I assume that helicopters operating at lower levels would find the quarter mils useful.
I use the fine point overhead projector pens (wih my track line, notes, and a large wind arrow, all in green or blue). Chinagraphs rub off and a chinagraph track line is over a nautical mile wide. I used to stick on compass roses for diversions, but nowadays use the small rose around a VOR on the map to give me quick tracks for diversions.
On French charts I have used a pencil, which is not ideal as the track line is a bit hard to see at a glance. Next time I go I must invest in a high-tech coloured pencil.
I use the fine point overhead projector pens (wih my track line, notes, and a large wind arrow, all in green or blue). Chinagraphs rub off and a chinagraph track line is over a nautical mile wide. I used to stick on compass roses for diversions, but nowadays use the small rose around a VOR on the map to give me quick tracks for diversions.
On French charts I have used a pencil, which is not ideal as the track line is a bit hard to see at a glance. Next time I go I must invest in a high-tech coloured pencil.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Andy,
I asked this question when I was flying in the US. They said that the charts are so cheap that they use coloured pencils and rub the lines out - and once the charts start to tear or become unreadable, they buy new ones. So that's what I did. The chart I used the most lasted around a month.
As for 1/4 mil charts, never tried them over here. But again, in the US, Terminal charts are all 1/4 mil. Caused me to get lost a couple of times when I was on local flights, having not bothered to create a proper plan, "forgot" that I was working on a different scale and ended up having flown twice as far as I thought I had
Fortunately I never bust controlled airspace this way, although it would have been easy to do so. I guess it's just a case of what you're used to.
FFF
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I asked this question when I was flying in the US. They said that the charts are so cheap that they use coloured pencils and rub the lines out - and once the charts start to tear or become unreadable, they buy new ones. So that's what I did. The chart I used the most lasted around a month.
As for 1/4 mil charts, never tried them over here. But again, in the US, Terminal charts are all 1/4 mil. Caused me to get lost a couple of times when I was on local flights, having not bothered to create a proper plan, "forgot" that I was working on a different scale and ended up having flown twice as far as I thought I had
Fortunately I never bust controlled airspace this way, although it would have been easy to do so. I guess it's just a case of what you're used to.FFF
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No VOR or NDB kit so it's chart and permanent OHP pen. Do a PLOG, mark off 6 minute markers on the chart. Mark the wind speed and direction on the chart near to my track in case I need to divert.
Heading and stopwatch.
Backup is a handheld GPS on a flexi-mount with a route pre-programmed into it. Monitor actual against intended track on this and use it to identify my position on the chart. If it dies on me I know where I am and can carry on by eyeball.
Works for me.
Mike
Heading and stopwatch.
Backup is a handheld GPS on a flexi-mount with a route pre-programmed into it. Monitor actual against intended track on this and use it to identify my position on the chart. If it dies on me I know where I am and can carry on by eyeball.
Works for me.
Mike
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1) Draw lines on chart and write-up a full PLOG as per training
2) Tune in a VOR/NDB and use that instead
3) Feature crawl (not necessarily along the line I drew on the map, but always aware where it is if needed).
I know feature-crawling isn't the 'correct' way to do it. Accurate dead-reckoning nav must be very satisfying - just looking out the window after X minutes and seeing exactly what one expects, but when unfamiliar with the area, I want to see and identify everything I pass over so that if/when I have to turn around, I know exactly what I'm likely to see on the way home. I get very uneasy if I don't know EXACTLY where I am all the time, even if I'm sure I'm on track. I suppose that's why I like the VOR/DME combination.
2) Tune in a VOR/NDB and use that instead
3) Feature crawl (not necessarily along the line I drew on the map, but always aware where it is if needed).
I know feature-crawling isn't the 'correct' way to do it. Accurate dead-reckoning nav must be very satisfying - just looking out the window after X minutes and seeing exactly what one expects, but when unfamiliar with the area, I want to see and identify everything I pass over so that if/when I have to turn around, I know exactly what I'm likely to see on the way home. I get very uneasy if I don't know EXACTLY where I am all the time, even if I'm sure I'm on track. I suppose that's why I like the VOR/DME combination.