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PPL FAA 61.75 after SOLI away from the UK CAA

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PPL FAA 61.75 after SOLI away from the UK CAA

Old 8th Feb 2022, 18:50
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fdl
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PPL FAA 61.75 after SOLI away from the UK CAA

I currently have a (non-UK) EASA licence following a SOLI away from the UK CAA I unfortunately needed to do in light of Brexit as I fly a lot of EASA registered aircraft outside of the UK. I dont currently hold any UK CAA licence since my flying in the UK is minimal and it is not worth the effort to keep that licence (which I could apply for) active in parallel to my EASA licence. Furthermore I used to have a valid FAA 61.75 PPL piggy back licence which has proven very helpful to rent aircraft when visiting the US. This FAA piggy back licence, however, is based on the former UK issued EASA licence which is no longer valid post SOLI (which also invalidates the FAA piggy back licence).

Initially I thought no problem, I just apply for a new FAA piggy back licence on the basis of the non-UK EASA licence and I am all good. I have not tried that yet. However, I understand that the FAA will not issue such a licence since my non-UK EASA licence clearly states that it has been issued on the basis of a UK EASA licence (as one would expect during the SOLI process) and apparently this is a big topic for the FAA since they'll refuse to issue a piggy back FAA licence post SOLI as they dont seem to understand that the new EASA licence post SOLI is a licence in its own right and reference is only made to a former licence rather than a still existing/valid licence. They seem to believe it was issued on the basis of another still existing licence and that doesnt pass their requirements.

Has anyone else had this problem and if so found a solution?

Following things come to mind, all of which create a lot of pain:
1) Apply for a UK CAA licence and keep it current to then apply for a new FAA piggy back licence on the basis of that. I guess 2 medicals (UK and EASA) and 2 seperate renewal processes needed, costly in the long run and I have no need for a UK CAA licence other than as a basis for the FAA piggy back
2) Take a flight test with an EASA examiner (if the local AA allows for that at all) and get EASA licence issued without the reference to the UK CAA (I'll probably fail that without additional training as most experienced pilots would given many examiners are special people looking out for specific things, so messy and costly)
3) Avoid the "house of cards" FAA piggy back licence all together and do a proper FAA licence (costly and complex due to visa requirements etc)

I certainly wasnt aware of this issue when doing the SOLI...

Any ideas welcome. Thanks a lot.
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Old 8th Feb 2022, 22:03
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Oops - sounds like I may be in the same situation as you, fdl.

Could I ask a couple of questions?

Firstly, which country issued your EASA licence? Mine is Germany and there isn't much on the licence to show it was originally issued in the UK. The only place it appears is in section II where the country code of original issue is shown as GB.

Secondly, can you give any indication where you discovered this information.

Possibly if my German licence is more acceptable to them, that might be another option for you - SOLI again to another country. Certainly not a pain-free option, though.
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Old 8th Feb 2022, 22:40
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However, I understand that the FAA will not issue such a licence since my non-UK EASA licence clearly states that it has been issued on the basis of a UK EASA licence
When you say you "understand" what do you mean? What you are suggesting appears very complicated.

It is worth being pedantic to unravel some confusion. You cannot have an EASA licence because EASA is not a state. Your licence has been issued by a state which is a member of EASA and therefore "issued in accordance with EASA" standards. However your licence is first of all an ICAO compliant licence which is recognised world wide. It is the ICAO membership that provides the reciprocity with the USA. Before taking any action you should clarify your position with whatever country (state) that has issued your licence and/or the FAA directly. There cannot be any interest by the FAA on the issue history of your licence, but only that it is valid.
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Old 9th Feb 2022, 08:53
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wrong_stuff : I SOLIed to Austria. Unfortunately those guys state as clearly as they can under "III" date of initial issue and country code of initial issue. as "GB"...

I found the information regarding the FAA refusal in a German forum. I cannot post links as I am new to this forum but you sld be able to find it if you google "Lizenz Umzug nach Österreich - Pilot und Flugzeug Forum"

Want to avoid another SOLI given costs associated but would be curious to hear if people managed to solve the issue that way.
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Old 9th Feb 2022, 10:05
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Why do you want a FAA Piggy back licence ?
where and what do you want to fly with your piggy back licence ?

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Old 9th Feb 2022, 10:24
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Originally Posted by md 600 driver View Post
Why do you want a FAA Piggy back licence ?
where and what do you want to fly with your piggy back licence ?
I have used the now expired FAA piggy back licence extensively in the past to rent and fly aircraft in the US and want to continue to do that.
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Old 9th Feb 2022, 10:41
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Originally Posted by fdl View Post
I have used the now expired FAA piggy back licence extensively in the past to rent and fly aircraft in the US and want to continue to do that.
options

On your next visit to usa take a flight test with a examiner for a full ppl you would need 3 hours min with a instructor first and pass the written tests (computor )and a medical maybe some night flying if you don’t have some in your logbook but this can be done as part of your 3 hours min By selecting a AME or CFI that has both easa and FAA privileges they could validate both your licences in the future

at the moment you can get a 61.75 by applying to a examiner based in Europe /uk
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Old 9th Feb 2022, 10:56
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Thanks md600 driver. Agree this is a solution as I had also outlined but will likely also require visa procedures, finger printing and all the other "good stuff" I wanted to avoid. I will also need to study for the written test (which is a good repetition in itself but will also take time).
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Old 9th Feb 2022, 10:58
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What country are you based in ?
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Old 9th Feb 2022, 11:06
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Originally Posted by Fl1ingfrog View Post
When you say you "understand" what do you mean? What you are suggesting appears very complicated.

It is worth being pedantic to unravel some confusion. You cannot have an EASA licence because EASA is not a state. Your licence has been issued by a state which is a member of EASA and therefore "issued in accordance with EASA" standards. However your licence is first of all an ICAO compliant licence which is recognised world wide. It is the ICAO membership that provides the reciprocity with the USA. Before taking any action you should clarify your position with whatever country (state) that has issued your licence and/or the FAA directly. There cannot be any interest by the FAA on the issue history of your licence, but only that it is valid.
Thanks a lot Fl1ingfrog, I thought I had replied to you but it seems the post got lost.

My EASA licence is issued in Austria post SOLI from the UK CAA.

I fully agree with your assessment in that the FAA should not care. But this is not the experience others appear to have had with the FAA. In the German forum I referenced earlier the response the FAA appears to have sent to an application post SOLI was as follows:

"The Airmen Certification Branch, AFS-760, has received the confirmation below that the following airman's foreign license and medical certificate or endorsement have been verified as NOT ELIGIBLE.

Name: XYZ

License Number(s): 123456789

This license has been verified as NOT ELIGIBLE since the foreign license is based on another country’s

foreign license. (Reference: §61.75(f))"


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Old 9th Feb 2022, 11:08
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I live in both the UK and Germany.
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Old 9th Feb 2022, 14:37
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This may be a strange idea, but the origin of the refusal is the FAA's stance on the SOLI'd licence. Why not communicate with them about this? Perhaps you could convince the Austrian authorities to issue some kind of statement regarding your licence to support the fact that it is a fully-standalone licence and not dependant on another country's paperwork. I know it is easier said than done, but if you can convince the FAA that your paperwork is in order, that would be the shortest route to a resolution. I'm not saying easiest... just shortest.

FAA §61.75(f) states:
(f) Limitation on licenses used as the basis for a U.S. certificate. A person may use only one foreign pilot license as a basis for the issuance of a U.S. pilot certificate. The foreign pilot license and medical certification used as a basis for issuing a U.S. pilot certificate under this section must be written in English or accompanied by an English transcription that has been signed by an official or representative of the foreign aviation authority that issued the foreign pilot license.
The goal here would be to convince them that there is only one licence involved. You could also try to find or obtain some kind of letter or statement from the UK CAA saying that they have transferred everything to Austria and therefore there is not UK licence involved in this situation.
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Old 9th Feb 2022, 16:47
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I suspect that, if you applied for a replacement UK licence then it would have your 'original' UK licence number. If so, then your old FAA 61.75 certificate would automatically spring back into life.

Might save you at least one set of 'application aggravation.
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Old 9th Feb 2022, 17:54
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Originally Posted by Kemble Pitts View Post
I suspect that, if you applied for a replacement UK licence then it would have your 'original' UK licence number. If so, then your old FAA 61.75 certificate would automatically spring back into life.

Might save you at least one set of 'application aggravation.
Thanks, agree this might work and the CAA have a process in place to get a CAA licence for people who recently SOLIed out. The issue is I would need to keep this licence current to be able to fly with the FAA piggy back in parallel to the EASA licence, which causes cost and pain.
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Old 9th Feb 2022, 18:05
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Originally Posted by Jhieminga View Post
This may be a strange idea, but the origin of the refusal is the FAA's stance on the SOLI'd licence. Why not communicate with them about this? Perhaps you could convince the Austrian authorities to issue some kind of statement regarding your licence to support the fact that it is a fully-standalone licence and not dependant on another country's paperwork. I know it is easier said than done, but if you can convince the FAA that your paperwork is in order, that would be the shortest route to a resolution. I'm not saying easiest... just shortest.

FAA §61.75(f) states:

The goal here would be to convince them that there is only one licence involved. You could also try to find or obtain some kind of letter or statement from the UK CAA saying that they have transferred everything to Austria and therefore there is not UK licence involved in this situation.
Yes thank you, agree and will probably be the route I am taking. I had hoped that someone in this forum might have already encountered the issue and had any advice to offer (e.g. a "friendly" contact point at the FAA who would be open to such an attempt).

I can see how the FAA wants to avoid piggy back licences on the basis of piggy back licences (hence their stance on this in general) but guess the SOLI is something different conceptually so there is a case to make for it.

The same issue by the way seems to apply to the at least on paper attractive licence conversion opportunities offered by the new EASA/FAA BASA, which also don't seem to be open to SOLIs under similar rules, so suspect quite a lot of people will be affected by this over time. It is interesting/frustrating to see that EASA seems to have not pushed for a provision to address this very matter in the BASA.
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Old 9th Feb 2022, 18:15
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There is nothing in the FAA wording posted that suggest the FAA refusal is to do with a SOLI ICAO transferred licence, even if the original German poster thought so. When you transfer from your current/ original state of licence issue (SOLI) then that is what you have done. The new state does not base their licence issue on the previous NAA because they now hold all your licensing records and they become the issuing authority. This is what I mean by the "history" not being relevant.

Only having all the information is it possible not to be tempted to go up blind alleys. Do your own application based on your current licence but do not use language, based on assumptions, that can be misunderstood. If your Austrian licence is an EASA compliant licence but importantly issued in accordance with ICAO: i.e. not a LAPL or a national only PPL, that should be enough.

Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 9th Feb 2022 at 18:38.
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Old 9th Feb 2022, 19:00
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A certificate under 61.75 says "valid in conjunction with license 123456 from XYZ country." Or something similar.

If you SOLI from XYZ to ABC then the underlying license no longer exists.

Training for a stand alone private ASEL ticket under 61.109 requires visa/TSA/etc despite being "private-to-private." But, provides a permanent solution. Requires a knowledge test, "three hours training in the previous 60 days," and a checkride.
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Old 9th Feb 2022, 19:42
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The text that the German poster received is above in post #10 and I have no doubt that this is genuine, but Fl1ingfrog is correct in stating that you should not automatically assume that you'll receive the same response. Delving into this a bit further, it may be that the core of the issue is a bit further down the rabbit hole, as I don't think that ICAO ever catered for the situation of a SOLI. FAR 61.75 is there to allow ICAO licences to be used as the basis for an FAA licence, but it clearly states that you can only use a single licence as the 'base' licence. As fdl said, the SOLI situation is a different concept entirely whereby one state can issue a licence and another can take over the paperwork and issue a new licence to you. It is something that works in EASA-land but to a non-EASA state it may look like a piggyback situation, especially with a different state listed as 'state of issue' on the paper certificate. Yes, they should recognise it as an ICAO licence and not worry about the history but I guess they're playing it safe in this respect. It wouldn't surprise me if ICAO has no guidelines on how to deal with this situation.
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Old 9th Feb 2022, 21:56
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My 1987 FAA 61.75 became invalid when I retired and changed my address in 2006, as the UK CAA issued me with a JAR license. I had to apply for 61.75 again. I was not issued with a new 61.75, but it was revalidated and reissued on the new UK License.
I then converted to an EASA license, with a retained UK license. Same numbers but with different letters. I suspected my 61.75 will need revalidating again. Then Brexit.
My plans were affected by COVID-19 regulations so I haven't done anything to revalidate
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Old 9th Feb 2022, 22:22
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I was not issued with a new 61.75, but it was revalidated and reissued on the new UK License.
But, you didn't have a new UK licence. You always had a UK licence the only change being that the European Commission words could be removed from the cover. The same for the UK passports. This would only happen if the licence was lost, damaged or a new rating was added etc. Until then the words can be ignored. The number didn't change, as you say, even on reissue
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