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Simming before PPL

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Simming before PPL

Old 22nd Nov 2021, 12:57
  #101 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2021
Location: Brussels
Posts: 11
Here we go!

Less Hair
Forget the game sim.
Here is some well done open MIT PPL course to prepare yourself:
Thanks for the link but these are FAA documents. Don't know if there are some variations between EASA and FAA but I believe there are.

whilst there are probably people out there who don't even have a licence but who have read the FCOM and FCTM back to front 10 times because it is their passion.
This is me.

Just for completeness/being picky/pointing out a little knowledge might be a dangerous thing - in the context of that comment do you really mean a runway “accommodating cat 3” or do you actually mean a runway, which regardless of category, can accommodate an autoland?

If you mean the former then if you are unlucky enough to have your chicken eating crew fall ill in the final stages of a long sector then you may very easily find there is no airport “accommodating cat3” with the current range of the aircraft. A request for such would result in blank looks from ATC over large swaths of the world, including parts the States…

OTOH telling ATC you need a runway that will accommodate an autoland might be the better bet.
Yea didn't use the words there I agree. We can autoland on CAT1 actually couldn't we? Correct me if I am wrong but I think pilots practise autoland from time to time even when it's not necessary for example to test the aircraft or other reasons.

I did ask a few questions in my posts, out of interest, do you know what carb heat is?

do you apply it in the sim?
Never heard it before until doing some researches. I am wondering why it has never been mentioned in any of the lights I flew on the sim. That feature is not present on every general aviation airplanes is it? I mean it's always there but is it not made automatically? When researching for it I found out that many instructors were quite surprised and amused to see how very few simmers were able to explain what this is.

Treat the 'real world flying' as a complete novice and I'm sure you will enjoy it and progress well.
Yes exactly and if with a bit of luck my instructor tells me something I learnt in the sim then it can only be beneficial but the sim won't be THE reference.

Simmer community guidance (notable absence of stick measuring):
Simmer complaining it's hard to find (he knows he needs it):
Simmer trying to setup his HW to control it (MS shipped the game wrongly with non-discrete config):
Now I know what carbo heat is.

Fact I observed, that many of the community-based document packages for VATSIM or IVAO are much better detail and quality than your average airline books. Peer-reviewed and open-source, there's indeed far greater resource available to get it done nice and neat, compared to your average 40% under-staffed FlightOps engineering. No egos hurt, strength in numbers and enthusiasm
If they are then how comes that some people here are convinced that sim doesn't help AT ALL? I read tons of IVAO documents in the past, mostly for the exams I passed and you're saying that these documents are actually more detailed than airline books. Someone who studied really detailed books will definitely have a good background when starting his training, that seems obvious to me. As I said now thousands of times, I will listen to my instructor, not mention my sim at all and we'll see how it goes. I might have bad habits, I might have good habits, I don't know. I'll find out with my instructor.
All I can say is that I know many pilots who are still impressed by the level of realism just by flying on VATSIM and some of them are still using desktop sims to practise SOPs and flows.
There are limitations in the sim of course and I mentioned these already. I know I'm not a 777 pilot and can't land an airplane at the moment.

In summary, as I've stated before, personally I don't think having 'sim' experience is a bad thing but please, please, please leave it at the door of real life flying, insert new cassette and begin learning.
Will do it

I've always found flying the real thing to be a lot easier than the Sim.
Thanks for your kind words. I have a friend flying in the desktop sim. He started flying in real life recently and was quite surprised by how easier it is to fly a real airplane in comparison to the sim. It's easier to land or just to maintain an altitude because you wouldn't do it only based on numbers (causing bad habits to only look at your instruments) but also on the sensations, the feelings and all the stuff you can't have on desktop sims. I remember how much he was struggling when we asked him to maintain an altitude. In real life, it's easy, a piece of cake. That's what he said and hopefully, it's gonna be the same for me.

A significant number of airline pilots and trainers have an attitude that they are cleverer and better than you, and they think that if you are new to the industry, you know nothing until they have taught you. This is true to an extent and you have an enormous amount of work ahead of you, but you have to let them have their ego - they will be signing your licence. So even though you might have more knowledge than some newbies, do not mention this or sim flying at all, and pretend not to know anything much about flying - certainly not anything deeply technical or operational, such as de-icing hold-over times etc. Be quiet, modest and unassuming. The instructor should tell you what to learn next, so follow their guide.
Let them have their ego and take away your ego that's the thing.

I should also have said that "flying" a desk-top simulator, is nothing like the real thing either. Nothing like it. If you have actual line experience of flying a big jet, then a simulator can be useful for procedural practise or checklist, or memory drill practise, but it really is not anything like the real thing. When flying real big jets, everything happens very very quickly; the novice on their first few hours on the line will find themselves running to keep up with the aircraft, and they go home mentally exhausted.
I fully agree.

How’s he going to achieve the next level if he is already at Correlation ?
Rebegin everything again! Always learning new stuff.

This did make me chuckle! I see what you're trying to say but it's still has a slightly, shall we say, arrogant cast to it!
Just a little bit.
But I am not the only one being arrogant on this thread
Seriously, how could I be a 777 pilot when I never flew one? So many things that can't be simulated in a desktop sim like coms for eg. My knowledge is limited to books only. Now I have to practice in the real one if I want to be close to real pilots.

I've been flying the 777 for well over a decade and I am still learning!
I am too, even in the sim. Sometimes I can discover so many things in a small period of time that I say I know absolutely nothing about aviation. And sometimes, when a non-aviation enthusiast comes here and asks me something incredibly simple that I thought everyone knew like how to read a PFD, I feel like the king of aviation.
This industry is rich and you'll never stop learning. I don't think there is a king. You have to talk with people and accept to learn from everyone literally, even a poor guy who has never heard of airplanes before. Work as a team. That's how you will be a good pilot.

None of this: Say again? Divert to… Look out for traffic at… Please follow… You are number three behind… Watch out for deer on runway…
I am wondering on which network you flew then. Okay, except for the deer.

Just to add to the above. In your initial contact were you banging on about how much flight sim flying you do and the 777? If you were then they probably think you will be too much hard work.
Never did it. Just said I wanted to study for my PPL. I think I answered that question previously but never mind.

Good luck in your quest, just please please please don't try to impress your instructor.
I will try to impress my instructor... By flying like he wants me to fly

Best to keep quiet about your Sim and accept that you know very little about actual real flying; but do stay keen and open-minded to the training ahead of you. Good luck !
If I already know everything then my training course will be really boring. So many things to discover about my passion and that's what makes it exciting!

The OP should read the AAIB report for Light aircraft down in the Lake District , Cumbria, in the accidents thread:

Although this was a fatal accident, the report gives a really good explanation of all the issues and considerations involved with flying a light aircraft. I recommend that you read the report very thoroughly. It will give you a good overview.
I love reading reports!
ELMS77W is offline  
Old 22nd Nov 2021, 13:00
  #102 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2021
Location: Brussels
Posts: 11
Well done ELMS, hang in there, and appreciate those who share their wisdom here!
Love it! Really constructive. I do definitely not regret signing up here!
ELMS77W is offline  
Old 22nd Nov 2021, 13:49
  #103 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Mare Imbrium
Posts: 617
"....am about to start my PPL training really soon, just waiting for the answer from my aeroclub..."

From the first post on the thread. 3rd November. Nearly three weeks ago. Even the slackest aeroclub should have gotten back to you with some dates for that all important first lesson by now. If they haven't, I'd think about making some enquiries other places. No?
Heston is offline  
Old 22nd Nov 2021, 23:10
  #104 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2021
Location: Brussels
Posts: 11
Well they got a communication issue because the president recently changed and the old president who is apparently the one who has to take my inscription has never heard of me. Anyway, I got in contact with him so hopefully next week I will be ready for my first lesson!
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Old 23rd Nov 2021, 02:52
  #105 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Age: 60
Posts: 5,009
Never heard it before until doing some researches. I am wondering why it has never been mentioned in any of the lights I flew on the sim. That feature is not present on every general aviation airplanes is it? I mean it's always there but is it not made automatically? When researching for it I found out that many instructors were quite surprised and amused to see how very few simmers were able to explain what this is.
This is a good example of how getting right into simming a big jet can completely steer you away from what you need to know for flying GA planes safely. Failure to understand carb heat and correctly applying it will cause you an engine failure at the least convenient time one day!
  • Some GA planes have a carb heat some don't - which are which and why?
  • What is the relationship to carb heat and alternate air?
  • Do planes which do not have carb heat still have alternate air?
  • Do planes have an alternate air control if not a carb heat control?
  • What information is necessary for you to apply partial carb heat?
  • If you apply carb heat for a rough running engine, and the engine then runs worse, what should you do? Why? For how long?
  • If you apply carb heat, and it's not enough, what two engine controls can you adjust to get a little more carb heat? Adjust how?
  • When might you need to urgently apply carb heat, but have not encountered carb icing conditions?
  • Why should you never use carb heat while taxiing?
  • If your plane is equipped with an indicator associated with carb heat, what is that indicator?
  • What does the yellow arc on that indicator mean? Where will the yellow arc be on the scale? Will there be any green or red lines on that indicator?
  • Will a piston engined airplane which does not have a carb heat control always have an electric fuel pump? Why?
  • Could an airplane which does have an electric fuel pump also have a carb heat control?
  • Where does the heat resulting from the application of carb heat come from?
  • If you have had an engine failure, will applying carb heat help you get it started again? Why?
  • What would be a practical warm outside air temperature where you would be unconcerned about carb icing?
  • What other atmospheric factors will affect carb icing?
  • Can you get carb icing on the ground?
  • If you're flying in very well below freezing air, is carb heat a risk?
Instead of an evening at the sim, invest that evening to research the foregoing questions, and come back to us with your thoughts. (Hint - one evening won't be enough!) What you learn about carb heat, the atmosphere, and induction systems to answer these questions will save your life one day, and please your instructor no end when you can articulate the answers correctly.

Depending upon how comprehensive your answer, I'll offer to make this into its own carb heat thread, 'cause it could very easily be its own topic. Your commitment to begin with this topic will get you a lot of wisdom from posters here with life experience with the use of carb heat (or not ).
Pilot DAR is offline  
Old 23rd Nov 2021, 05:19
  #106 (permalink)  

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Too much wisdom, perceived or real, is a dangerous thing for one's ego. Turns many young talents into acute backpains. This might actually recoil on him when meeting his instructor with the same disdain we've seen above repeatedly since the thread started.

That knowledge will find him when the time comes.

100+ posts telling the lad how wrong he is, come on. Time to move on - #simNOTsin.

The only advice/question we should be asking: After you reach the goal and become a real widebody pilot, do you understand the consequences and (missed)opportunities of living a life as one?

He should be studying Ruby / Go / Node.js, not carburettor heat.
FlightDetent is offline  
Old 23rd Nov 2021, 11:33
  #107 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,756
@Pilot DAR; that is a very comprehensive set of questions about carb heat - wow !
I could not answer all of them despite 20 + years of aviation experience ! (Mostly gas turbine aircraft admittedly).

But the OP not knowing what carb icing is does not make them bad or stupid; When I was little my Dad would sit me on his lap and let me steer the car along the farm-track we lived on, while he did the gears and pedals. When I was slightly older I read books about how cars worked, including electrics, the engine, gearbox, brakes and choke etc. and probably knew more about the technical side of cars than many drivers do.

But I could not drive. When I was older, I was allowed to drive the car by myself along the track, but I was still not a legal driver and had no appreciation of speeds above about 15mph or how to negotiate traffic flows, signalling and the legalities and hazards of driving on the roads. But I was and am keen on driving and my technical knowledge helped inform me when I did pass my test and became a legal driver.
Uplinker is offline  
Old 23rd Nov 2021, 12:13
  #108 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Age: 60
Posts: 5,009
But the OP not knowing what carb icing is does not make them bad or stupid
Certainly not! But, I opine that every student pilot has to have a basic knowledge (perhaps 1/3 of the questions I posed) before being ready for PPL exams. Thereafter, as the PPL continues on to more advanced GA airplanes, at least the next third of my posed questions would become applicable to the airplane they aspire to fly. And, the eager young mind, who started off inquiring about hold over time for deicing/anti icing fluid (not my strong skill set) should be aware that there's some much more basic systems knowledge which is more important to what they will fly first.

I remember being involved professionally in the investigation and commenting of the accident report for a Cessna 207 I had flown quite a bit before the other pilot's fatal accident. Among the things in the draft report (which apparently passed many eyes before it got to me) was a longish paragraph in the report, stating that the pilot had not selected carb heat, how that was an error, and how it might have been a factor. The Cessna 207 does not have a carburetor. The investigator had ample time to research this, and he even resisted my correction. I challenged him to look for the carb heat control on the depiction of the instrument panel in the POH, and that began to swing him around.

One of my early certification projects was to convert a Cessna 185 to have a carburetor, including designing and testing to approval, a carb heat system, and writing a flight manual supplement as to how to use it. I genuinely hope to swing the OP around to an interest in the systems and piloting of airplane types he/she will first encounter as a student, and build the good habit of learning what you'll be flying, rather than learning something else which distracts you from learning what you'll be flying, and then thinking the basic systems are unimportant. Carb heat is kind of the second cousin in the GA cockpit, some people seem to think it unimportant. The OP displays an interest in research, carb heat is an excellent starter topic to research!
Pilot DAR is offline  
Old 23rd Nov 2021, 21:00
  #109 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Moray,Scotland,U.K.
Posts: 1,654
"Why should you never use carb heat while taxiing?"
Most of my flying has been in aircraft whose manuals recommend carb heat while taxiing if needed. Jodel 1050 and Bolkow Junior, both with Continental O200 engines. Bad if dust ingested but on Sunday last the engine stopped soon after starting to taxi. Carb heat fixed it.

Maoraigh1 is offline  
Old 24th Nov 2021, 08:57
  #110 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 1,703
As Maoraigh says, our Continental 0-200 won't taxi very far over frosty grass without generous doses of carb heat. Be interested to hear why one shouldn't use it?
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Old 24th Nov 2021, 09:28
  #111 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Mare Imbrium
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Originally Posted by FlightDetent View Post
Too much wisdom, perceived or real, is a dangerous thing for one's ego. Turns many young talents into acute backpains.
picky of me I know, but what you really mean is that too much knowledge without the accompanying requisite wisdom is a dangerous thing.
Heston is offline  
Old 24th Nov 2021, 09:39
  #112 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 91
How reliable can knowledge obtained from some entertainment software be? A cockpit might look "real" for an outsider but it might work different. Look at trim indicators in game simulated aircraft, sometimes they just work in the opposite direction, or rudder deflections that are plain wrong. Look at you tube videos and how rude "expert" gamers fly and operate their complex aircraft. But spinning wheels, gear doors and the fasten seat belt signs are modelled in every detail. These things are made by computer nerds but they are not necessarily working like the real thing. And they are entirely missing instruction, procedures, regulations and certification. Therefore it's better to forget games and learn the real thing from scratch.
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Old 24th Nov 2021, 12:47
  #113 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Age: 60
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carb heat. Be interested to hear why one shouldn't use it?
From the Cessna 150M, and other Cessna POH's, under "Taxiing"

The carburetor heat control knob should be pushed full in during all ground operations unless absolutely necessary. When the knob is pulled to the heat position, air entering the engine is not filtered
The design requirements require that the alternate air source not be filtered (in case of a blocked filter, which a pilot could not see during a preflight inspection)
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