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Flying a g-reg aircraft on a French easa licence after transition

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Flying a g-reg aircraft on a French easa licence after transition

Old 13th Oct 2020, 18:18
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Flying a g-reg aircraft on a French easa licence after transition

Hi All,

I have been getting confusing information about this and I would like opinions as to what might happen.

I have a DGAC-issued IASA PPL and fly a G-reg aircraft based in the UK. This has worked fine for several years but it would appear that, after the 31 December, I might not be allowed to fly my own aeroplane. I am horrified. There would be the option of transferring my French-ussued licence to the CAA, but I do not want to give up my rights in 30 or so countries, in exchange for a licence with limited rights. I have even considered changing to the French register but that would have to be completed before the end of the year -- possible but risky! Also, I might not be able to have it maintained in the UK.if it were registered in France... and many more complications!

To further complicate matters, I am thinking of moving to France next year and my medical and annual/ARC are both due in March.

Any information or bright ideas would be more than welcome!

Cheers

John
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Old 13th Oct 2020, 18:52
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Many UK pilots have an EASA PPL and a UK PPL. You could try the UK CAA for a UK licence on the basis of your French EASA licence. They might jump at the opportunity to get more money.
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Old 13th Oct 2020, 18:59
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Do nothing right now, other than get ratings/medical nicely up to date. As of 1st January, the backstop position assuming no other agreements (as enshrined in Statutory Instrument 2019/645) is that your non-UK EASA compliant licence will be automatically validated on G reg aircraft for up to 2 years, or the first relevant date expiry, whichever is first. This will give you the time to apply for a UK FCL licence from January onwards - that way you retain your non-UK licence as well. Any UK National licence issued at the moment will remain usable on what are currently known as non-EASA types, so probably not much good to you right now.
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Old 13th Oct 2020, 19:29
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mapleworth, you have a French ICAO licence which will be valid for flight within the UK whatever happens. I presume your aeroplane has a full C of A (you do not say) and therefore will be able to be transfer to the French register when you move to France whatever happens, should you wish.


It is too early to say what the outcomes will be but there is no need to be too concerned. Subject to ICAO your compliant UK aircraft will be valid for flight throughout the world including easaland - whether it has an EASA stamp or not. Should EASA throw UK Flight Examiners and engineers overboard on the 31 st December is unlikely, we are yet to discover. Once the UK is out of EASA and there is no agreement stipulating otherwise then there will be nothing to stop you retaining you French licence and based on it obtaining a UK PPL in addition.

Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 13th Oct 2020 at 19:45.
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Old 13th Oct 2020, 19:51
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Thanks folks for the speedy replies. Just to clarify futrther, the aircraft (a Grumman Tiger) has a full C of A, is on an SDMP and I have a class 2 medical vailid until March (and an LAPL medical until March the following year, which would allow me to fly on my PPL reduced to the privileges of an LAPL if ncessary).

Putting the aircraft on the French register after the end of this year would be a lot more difficult than while we are in EASA.. As long as we are in the EASA, it is a (very) administrative process but involves no inspections or regulatory complications... just basically moving the paperwork from one country to another.
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 09:47
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Hi Again,

It is still unclear that I, with a French issued IASA PPL, after 1 January 2021, will be allowed to fly my G-reg aircraft
a) in the UK and/or
b) in France

I remember the "bad old days" when, as a French licence holder, I could only fly F-reg aircraft, and it looks as if the UK is heading straight bck to the bad old days!
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 10:06
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We own a Tiger on the D reg and have been advised that we can't fly it after 1st Jan with our UK/Easa licenses, so we've started the process of bringing her onto the G.
It was either that or sell it.
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 10:14
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Before EASA demands changed things it was always possible to fly privately a UK registered aircraft within the UK airspace on an ICAO licence. The UK was one of the few countries to allow this. Many ICAO countries required some kind of formality. Meantime LastStandards has explained the current position. You have 2 years from 1st January during which you do nothing unless you choose. The whole point of JAR and then into EASA (with a wider agenda) was to validate your licence for use anywhere within euroland. I can't believe that the UK will ever seek to prevent you flying a UK registered aircraft anywhere in the euro world using a French EASA licence.

It is currently a waiting game.unfortunately. Time will tell.
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 12:48
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Originally Posted by Fl1ingfrog View Post
Before EASA demands changed things it was always possible to fly privately a UK registered aircraft within the UK airspace on an ICAO licence. The UK was one of the few countries to allow this. Many ICAO countries required some kind of formality. Meantime LastStandards has explained the current position. You have 2 years from 1st January during which you do nothing unless you choose. The whole point of JAR and then into EASA (with a wider agenda) was to validate your licence for use anywhere within euroland. I can't believe that the UK will ever seek to prevent you flying a UK registered aircraft anywhere in the euro world using a French EASA licence.

It is currently a waiting game.unfortunately. Time will tell.
Indeed it would appear to be the case for the CAA to recognize EASA licences for up to 2 years in the UK... BUT, what about EASAland recognizing G-reg aircraft flown on non-British licences? I phoned the DGAC this morning and the charming lady at the "bureau des licences" said that they have no idea.
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 12:53
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Originally Posted by Flyingbadge View Post
We own a Tiger on the D reg and have been advised that we can't fly it after 1st Jan with our UK/Easa licenses, so we've started the process of bringing her onto the G.
It was either that or sell it.
... and if you exchanged your licence for a German one... surely that would be less of a problem... that is, if you can continue to have it maintained where you do at present (in the UK?)
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 14:12
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Why would the French object to a french pilot flying a foreign registered aeroplane that is ICAO compliant? Anyway, the country of registration decides who is entitled to fly the aeroplane. No other country can change that without good reason. That is an established principle.

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Old 14th Oct 2020, 16:42
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By transferring your licence to the UK, you would not be losing the right to fly in the EU. You can fly N-reg aeroplanes across the EU with an FAA licence, and will be able to fly G-reg aeroplanes with a UK licence.

What you actually want is the ability to *both* fly G-reg and F/D/OE/EC/whatever EASA aeroplanes.

The best solution in the short term seems to be to get a UK CAA validation of your French EASA PPL. Then organise, once rules for this have been published, a UK PPL, which is additional to your French issued EASA one - it looks like CAA will be very amenable to this, I just don't think they're able to publish a rule for it until we've left EASA, as at the moment all they can legally do is transfer your licence to the UK, which entirely understandably, you don't want to do.

G
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 16:43
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Originally Posted by Fl1ingfrog View Post
Why would the French object to a french pilot flying a foreign registered aeroplane that is ICAO compliant? Anyway, the country of registration decides who is entitled to fly the aeroplane. No other country can change that without good reason. That is an established principle.
Ah, so that is why, for example, an N-reg aircraft can be flown in France by a French pilot, (but that pilot is not allowed to fly that N-reg aircraft outside France). It is because the FAA have decided thus, correct?

On that basis, it would mean that the CAA has the right to limit where a G-reg aircraft can fly and could, for example, like the FAA, say a G-reg aircraft can be flown by a UK licence holder or, in this case, in France if flown by a holder of a French licence. In my case, this would mean I could ONLY fly my plane in France.

Perhaps, in this current situation, the CAA can say that a G-reg aircraft can be flown by any IASA-licence-holder in any IASA country, but I can't find any such statement.
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 16:54
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You must have a CofA, licence, and medical issued by the same state.

The UK is a state, the USA is a state, the EU acts like a state and doubtless will eventually become one.

None of this cares about your nationality, only the nationality of the licence, medical and CofA.

I can legally fly an N-reg aeroplane around the world on my FAA licence and medical, or a G-reg aeroplane around the world on my CAA licence and medical. Until the end of this year I can fly an F-reg aeroplane around the world on my UK issued EASA licence and medical, but on January 1st I no longer can, for which reason I'm transferring that one to Ireland - but any other EASA member country would be equally suitable.

There are some relaxations, there are also some countries who have issues over *residency* - not the same as nationality. So it's somewhat difficult for an EU *resident* to own an N-reg aeroplane: you can do it, but workarounds are needed. I suspect that the UK will be pretty relaxed going forwards about EASA aeroplanes being based in the UK and flown by EASA pilots, as it has for years been over American aeroplanes and licences - that has been an EU problem, not a British one.

G
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 17:24
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Originally Posted by Genghis the Engineer View Post
You must have a CofA, licence, and medical issued by the same state.

The UK is a state, the USA is a state, the EU acts like a state and doubtless will eventually become one.

None of this cares about your nationality, only the nationality of the licence, medical and CofA.

I can legally fly an N-reg aeroplane around the world on my FAA licence and medical, or a G-reg aeroplane around the world on my CAA licence and medical. Until the end of this year I can fly an F-reg aeroplane around the world on my UK issued EASA licence and medical, but on January 1st I no longer can, for which reason I'm transferring that one to Ireland - but any other EASA member country would be equally suitable.

There are some relaxations, there are also some countries who have issues over *residency* - not the same as nationality. So it's somewhat difficult for an EU *resident* to own an N-reg aeroplane: you can do it, but workarounds are needed. I suspect that the UK will be pretty relaxed going forwards about EASA aeroplanes being based in the UK and flown by EASA pilots, as it has for years been over American aeroplanes and licences - that has been an EU problem, not a British one.

G
Well, when I said "French", for example, I meant "Issued by France".

Yes, this is the whole problem. Now we all have EU licences, medicals and CofAs. Then along came Brexit and we Brits are going to be excluded/isolated from thes common standards. In my case, I have a french-issued licence, a UK-issued medical and a UK-issued CofA. If necessary I can get a medical done in France instead and even fly with a French instructor every 2 years, but the CofA (registration) is a different kettle of fish! (BTW, the DGAC told me that the registration is not a question of residency but a question of nationality).

So, are you saying that, in your case, you will not be flying G-reg aircraft with your Irish-issued-PPL, or that you will perhaps only be able to fly G-reg aircraft in Ireland?

Perhaps they will be pretty relaxed about EU-regs based in the UK, but there could be a maintenance problem.

Oh why are we doing ourselves such self harm!
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 20:47
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mapleworth, Genghis the Engineer has provided a lucid and accurate explanation. The FAA do not grant an approval to a non FAA pilot to fly an 'N' reg aeroplane in a single country (state in formal parlance) only. If you are granted such a right by any state then it applies to the world. No 3rd party country has a say in it.

It is true to say that the licence standards throughout the world are not exactly the same. ICAO only provides for a common minimum and acceptable standard. ICAO doesn't micro manage in the same way as EASA. Many countries add various additional elements to their own issued licences as they do with aircraft certification and the maintenance schedules. Your EASA licence is an ICAO one but with EASA bits and pieces added. The same goes for aircraft certification and the maintenance schedule. That does not affect the rights of a foreign registered aircraft being flown by their approved pilot, who should not be obstructed. A state does have the right to prevent a foreign registered aeroplane from being permanently based. Most will accept such an aircraft to be based for a short period of time whatever it decides. The UK does not set a period that a foreign registered aircraft may remain. That is why you will see so many USA owned and registered aeroplanes based permanently in the UK.

Mapleworth, to put things in a nutshell your spending too much effort in suppositions and then looking for the verifications that it is not possible to find. As for EASA and the UK, the CAA/EASA are not giving any hints to any agreements that may follow after January 1st. Your contact at the DGAC has it all in perspective, the gallic shrug is well placed in all this, be assured.

Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 14th Oct 2020 at 21:00.
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Old 14th Oct 2020, 22:25
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Originally Posted by mapleworth View Post
... and if you exchanged your licence for a German one... surely that would be less of a problem...
The hassle of maintaining a foreign license (I presume a German/EU medical required?) wouldn't be worth it for me plus it would present me with a different set of limitations.


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Old 14th Oct 2020, 23:21
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Flyingbadge no one can predict what will be after 31st December. Listening to gossip as being fact is very expensive.
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Old 15th Oct 2020, 09:35
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The FAA do not grant an approval to a non FAA pilot to fly an 'N' reg aeroplane in a single country (state in formal parlance) only.
What I think you are saying here is not true. The FAA permits a US registered aircraft to be flown by the holder of a non-US licence only in the state that issued that licence. Since the EU is not a state, a French issued EASA licence entitles the holder to fly a US-registered aircraft only in French airspace. If I have misunderstood your statement, I apologise.
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Old 15th Oct 2020, 10:11
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Originally Posted by BillieBob View Post
What I think you are saying here is not true. The FAA permits a US registered aircraft to be flown by the holder of a non-US licence only in the state that issued that licence. Since the EU is not a state, a French issued EASA licence entitles the holder to fly a US-registered aircraft only in French airspace. If I have misunderstood your statement, I apologise.
Hi Billie, as far as I can see, what you say is absolutely the case. The FAA only permit FAA or DGAC licence holders to fly in France. DGAC licence holders cannot fly an N-reg in the UK for example. If the CAA follow a similar stance about G-reg aircraft, I would ONLY be able to fly my G-reg aircraft in France, but not where I live (in the UK).

This is a pure hypothesis, but scary stuff that a simple statement from the CAA could clear up.

Originally Posted by Fl1ingfrog View Post
Flyingbadge no one can predict what will be after 31st December. Listening to gossip as being fact is very expensive.
That is why it is revolting that we have to play a potentially disastrous guessing game due to a lack of informtion from the CAA.
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