Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Non-Airline Forums > Private Flying
Reload this Page >

Has training restarted?

Private Flying LAA/BMAA/BGA/BPA The sheer pleasure of flight.

Has training restarted?

Old 15th Jun 2020, 16:52
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 37
Originally Posted by Radgirl View Post
Sorry S-works this paper is complete rubbish. There are multiple things wrong with it, but it doesnt have any evidence about CO2 as the CO2 wasnt measured. We are talking about a barrier mask not the use of compressed gases. I am happy to discuss your other claims but this is not the time or place. People need clear advice which is that a FFP3 mask does not significantly effect gas exchange and is safe.

If you would like to tell me how to determine whether someone in my aircraft has the virus so they dont need a mask let alone how you prevent infected people getting airside, I will make you a rich man because the entire medical system in the Western World is struggling to achieve this so we can restart safe elective surgery and the airlines are folding because they have failed to do so. I apologise for disputing your claims but safety demands clear advice based on science.
Whats your qualification to refute that paper?


S-Works is offline  
Old 15th Jun 2020, 18:13
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 38
FFP3 masks come with significant respiratory effort and are really quite fatiguing to wear. After a couple of hours work in one I'm hot and knackered.

I wouldn't want to fly in one and I don't really see why it should ever be necessary - wearing a simple cloth face mask would reduce your risk of spreading the virus significantly. Just need to make sure it doesn't fog your glasses up.
flyingorthopod is offline  
Old 15th Jun 2020, 18:29
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Broughton, UK
Posts: 102
What's your qualification to refute that paper?

Well it's the old 'Plot four random points on a graph trick.'.... Extrapolate the straight line to infinity, and we are all doomed.
.
scifi is offline  
Old 15th Jun 2020, 18:49
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 38
There are some papers modelling CO2 retention with various sorts of mask but I've not found a really good one.

https://www.oatext.com/Evaluation-of....php#gsc.tab=0

is a model paper showing significant re-breating of expired air with an N95 mask.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s415...raft=marketing

is a paper in children looking at adding a micro fan to N95 masks and showing that in vivo this decreases CO2 rebreathing to nearly normal levels.


Consensus seems to be that FFP3 and other high-protection masks will increase CO2 retention and is is clear they have an effect on performance. However, as we don't even wear them in a medical setting with covid patients unless performing aerosol generating procedures I can't see any justification for aircrew wearing a surgical, N95 or FFP3 mask.
flyingorthopod is offline  
Old 15th Jun 2020, 20:20
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 37
Yep. Exactly what we arrived at and agreed by the various regulators we deal with.
S-Works is offline  
Old 16th Jun 2020, 08:07
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 38
Originally Posted by Radgirl View Post
Sorry for my multiple posts, but the issue of virus transmission is important.

Masks are the most important method of mitigating transmission. Some studies suggest they reduce it by 70%, more than hand washing and spatial separation. Obviously most cabs are fairly leaky and there is good air circulation. Equally the incidence of the virus needs to be considered, as well as the risk to the instructor and student in terms of age, ethnicity and comorbidty. However many professional pilots and cabin crew are successfully using and working with masks. The reusable masks are easy to use because they do not need professional fit testing. I wear mine for 6 hours at a time and I am happy to answer PMs about various models and how to don / doff / test. CO2 retention is a new one on me and I cannot understand the physiology. The dead space created by a mask is insignificant, rebreathing is insignificant. Altitude should not increase CO2........S-Works please do send me any papers you have on that as I am genuinely interested.

Each person has to be comfortable with the precautions on their flight and S-Works' second paragraph is spot on. However it is not true to say masks and gloves are pointless.

Curious which mask you have? We get 3m valveless jobs and 6 hours in one would be awful.

Valved masks would I presume be better for performance and fatigue but won't stop you spreading covid around.

There's a market for somebody to get rich with a mask or visor that is effective, comfortable, not fatiguing and works with a microphone
flyingorthopod is offline  
Old 16th Jun 2020, 09:52
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Kiwiland
Posts: 647
I am reluctant to post again as this thread was supposed to give advice to students and instructors and by descending into 'my qualifications are better than yours' it has just confused.

To answer your question flyingorthopod we are using a number of masks but my personal favourite is a 3M 7500 series with a P3 6035 filter. Comfortable all day, and not a single healthcare worker I know has complained of it being difficult to breathe, experienced symptoms of CO2 retention, nor decreased performance. If you can clip an aneurism in the brain under a microscope with no problem I suggest you can teach a circuit. You can fit a mic inside the mask.

Also, in an attempt to clarify matters:

the basic masks now mandatory, eg on UK public transport, prevent the wearer spraying virus onto others but do not protect the wearer

the masks we are now discussing protect the wearer but not others. In the NHS I have only seen valved masks - you breathe in via the filter and straight out via the valve.

the basic mask will not provide YOU with adequate protection in a small plane if the other occupant is shedding virus. We have no method of checking if someone is truly virus free other than a combination of tests including 14 days isolation, which is impractical. Many students are young and will remain asymptomatic. Hand sanitisation and cleaning surfaces is important. Barring people with symptoms or known contacts is sensible. But masks are the real protection. Fortunately the viral incidence in many countries is falling and if it continues to do so the risk too falls but everyone must decide their own comfort zone. Happy to take PMs

Radgirl is offline  
Old 16th Jun 2020, 10:21
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 38
Thanks for that

All very sensible advice

In particular I think the public feel they have been advised to wear masks to protect themselves and I see lots of people wearing valved masks in shops which drives me absolutely bonkers!
flyingorthopod is offline  
Old 16th Jun 2020, 10:41
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: EDSP
Posts: 308
Originally Posted by A and C View Post
A German friend called home a week or so back and his family said that they think there is a great deal of under reporting in Germany, I know this is a bit anecdotal but a picture is starting to emerge.
Oh if it was only that simple.
At first they were underreporting significantly ... test capacity was low and only patients with known contact to confirmed cases were tested.
Then there was a phase of "honest" reporting because everyone with the slightest symptoms was beeing tested.
Followed by a phase of over reporting ... because they started screening people from the health sector, which led to infection rates beeing overestimated due to existing asymptomatic cases being discovered.
At the moment ... probably slight underestimation, light to moderate cases not being reliably diagnosed anymore.

Don't clinch to any numbers. Apply common sense.
BDAttitude is offline  
Old 16th Jun 2020, 14:56
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: England
Posts: 16
When do people think flight training in the UK will be back? I'm trying to have a checkout ride so I can fly solo with my PPL
aviator2345 is offline  
Old 16th Jun 2020, 16:43
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: N.YORKSHIRE
Posts: 859
Originally Posted by aviator2345 View Post
When do people think flight training in the UK will be back? I'm trying to have a checkout ride so I can fly solo with my PPL
Know any instructors whose life insurance won't be worthless if they keel over after losing the gamble?
Flyingmac is offline  
Old 16th Jun 2020, 17:25
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Down at the sharp pointy end, where all the weather is made.
Age: 71
Posts: 1,567
I'm too old to need life insurance.

Flying at all in a light aircraft is taking a risk. Flying as an instructor presumably multiplies that risk, though it's mitigated by us flying is a structured way - fatalities while flying amongst instructors seems very low.. The chances of becoming seriously ill or dying from Covid-19 is an additional risk. Each of us has to make up our own minds as to whether or not we're
a) prepared to take the additional risk for the sake of the satisfaction and mental stimulus that instructing provides (it certainly isn't for the money!)
b) prepared to put our loved ones at additional risk if we pass on the virus due to flying when we might not otherwise have caught it.

A big factor seems to be the amount of viral load you're subjected to when you become infected. Anecdotally, it seems a low viral load means the body can be better prepared to develop antibodies at a low enough rate to defeat the virus without doing significant damage to organs along the way. In a cockpit environment, with someone who is asymptomatic or pre-symptomatic, the received wisdom is that the viral load is lower than someone with symptoms who is coughing and/or sneezing a large quantity of virus. Therefore a simple mask designed to reduce the broadcast of aerosols, as worn by surgeons who want to reduce the risk of infecting patients they're working on, ought to be sufficient. Both occupants need to wear the SAME type of mask. you can't have one wearing a mask designed to protect others and the other person wearing one designed to protect only themselves...

TOO
TheOddOne is offline  
Old 17th Jun 2020, 10:01
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Uxbridge
Posts: 731
That's why I bought surgeon quality masks. They will be the only type used, hopefully soon!
MrAverage is offline  
Old 17th Jun 2020, 10:24
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Springfield
Posts: 32
Originally Posted by MrAverage View Post
That's why I bought surgeon quality masks. They will be the only type used, hopefully soon!
I hope that you have bought a few thousand.
Are you aware of the correct clinic protocol around mask usage? It runs to many pages.

And how will you dispose of this clinical waste? Have you provision for this?

​​​​Regular hand washing remains the only practical and the most effective counter measure to this and many other virus.
Herschel Krustofski is offline  
Old 17th Jun 2020, 12:43
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 37
Originally Posted by Herschel Krustofski View Post
I hope that you have bought a few thousand.
Are you aware of the correct clinic protocol around mask usage? It runs to many pages.

And how will you dispose of this clinical waste? Have you provision for this?

​​​​Regular hand washing remains the only practical and the most effective counter measure to this and many other virus.
Exactly! It is also what we were told by the relevant authorities when we submitted our risk assessments to restart. Same goes for gloves which also do nothing to stop transmission. Most people in the time they have been reading this will have scratched their face, picked their nose and stuck a finger in their ear............. Just wash your hands......

Your average Joe doe not know how to use PPE correctly or dispose of it safely. Its meant for short term wear and then be disposed of as clinical waste.



S-Works is offline  
Old 17th Jun 2020, 12:49
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 37
Originally Posted by Flyingmac View Post
Know any instructors whose life insurance won't be worthless if they keel over after losing the gamble?
Funnily enough we went through this when we were reopening and we got the lawyers to go and ask all the questions to ensure there was no wriggle room...... The answer is no it won't be worthless, once your policy is place thats it you are covered and dying from Covid is covered just fine. The employer is not liable under HSE regulations either and whole plethora of other stuff we had to ask in order to get the risk assessments agreed. It would be impossible to prove where you got the infection from for starters!!

But its a moot point, at my age my life insurance policy is long expired so I have lived with the risk long before the pandemic like a lot of people in the teaching end of aviation......
S-Works is offline  
Old 18th Jun 2020, 12:29
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 332
Given that other close-contact industries are reopening on 04 July (subject to no surge in reinfection rate), I think it's safe to state that PPL flight training will be allowed to recommence at the same time, but it may be in England only for the time being if the devolved nations aren't willing to follow suit yet.

Concerning facemasks, some ATOs are using them and some aren't. Heat is one factor that has deterred some from wearing them, and I've also heard the CO2 retention argument. As there is no way a school can 100% guarantee a coronavirus-free zone, I think the decision should be left to those sharing the cockpit.

Is anyone going to brave the trial lesson market in the near future? As a significant cash cow for the grass roots training industry, I can imagine that commercial pressure will play a part in this, but will it prove a step too far for instructors?
jez d is offline  
Old 18th Jun 2020, 14:22
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Springfield
Posts: 32
Originally Posted by jez d View Post
but will it prove a step too far for instructors?
I don't think it will, as instructors need to earn a living too and they are a pragmatic bunch.

I think that the restarting of premier league football should signal that flying instruction must restart. If it is OK for a minimum of 46 people (22 players 4 officials, 2 coaches 18 subs) to be in extremely close contact, it would be hypocritical to say a flying school, where one hopes contact will be less physical, couldn't operate.

England will eventually lead the way with Scotland trailing a few weeks behind, in order to maintain the veneer of independence.

Everything has been happening far too slowly. Politicians will argue that this is due to caution, and yet this caution is causing irreparable damage to health, the economy and society.

Fed up? Yes!
​​​
Herschel Krustofski is offline  
Old 18th Jun 2020, 14:59
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Romford Essex
Posts: 35
Slightly off topic, I recently saw a L Driving School car with 2 occupants, both wearing face masks.
I was driving in the opposite direction at the time, but it was definitely a commercial driving school car, not just a car with L Plates.
kit344 is offline  
Old 20th Jun 2020, 11:18
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Springfield
Posts: 32
Interesting parallel discussion here:

Can PPL, CPL and IR instructing recommence ?

It terms of the driving schools I was looking at DVLA guidance, as well as news articles on driving schools for comparison which might lead the way in what will happen with flying schools. Unfortunately the comparison is stark, with a lack of official information and a feeling among driving instructors that they, and their businesses (and livelihoods), have been forgotten about.
Herschel Krustofski is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.