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Has training restarted?

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Has training restarted?

Old 8th Jun 2020, 22:03
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Has training restarted?

Apparently a UK Flying School at Sandoft is providing checks to pilots according to a post on Twitter by @inflightvideo who recorded his flight with an instructor today.

Has the guidance changed or is social distancing just old news?

Edit *Tweet deleted it seems, lot of backlash... someone else has put a topic on flyer about it*

Last edited by planesandthings; 8th Jun 2020 at 23:14.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 07:52
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Guidance

Coronavirus (COVID-19): recreational general aviation

Updated 4 June 2020

Limits on GA flying in England

Since 13 May some sports, in which it is possible to observe social distancing, are permitted. The government takes the view that recreational general aviation is a permissible recreational sport.

This excludes most training flights, as social distancing measures require people not in the same household to maintain 2 metres of separation. While these flights are a key source of income for many aerodromes, they cannot presently be undertaken, unless this can be done in a way that reduces the risk of Covid-19 transmission to an acceptable level, including maintaining 2 metres separation between aircraft occupants.

Whilst noting that online training and socially-distanced training on the ground can take place, the inability to undertake training flights will mean that some pilots will not be able to resume flying until further easing of restrictions is possible. We advise those affected in this way to monitor this page and wider government guidance for further updates.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 09:58
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It could be that he was a Post-Solo PPL student, where his instructor told him to do some circuits.
Not too sure if he would be allowed to do a short cross-country, as a local 'familiarising flight' just in case he got lost, even though FR24 might be able to track him.
Maybe the whole PPL syllabus needs changing, much the same as glider pilots in single seater gliders are allowed to venture out on their own.
.
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Old 9th Jun 2020, 15:19
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The guidance maybe followed. One must not critise someone for adhering to the guidance.

The law must be followed.

​​​​So equally, one must not critise someone for adhering to the law where that law might be less limiting than the guidance.

​​​​​​​The law and the guidance are often being confused.
​​​​To quote a well known constitutional lawyer;

"The criminal law is what the law says, not what one thinks the law should be."
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Old 13th Jun 2020, 11:32
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Likewise, what its is legal to do is not always the right thing to do either. Exercising ones rights and applying common sense often don't seem to go hand in hand in aviation.
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Old 14th Jun 2020, 08:27
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The Two Metre rule is not a law, it is guidance.
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Old 14th Jun 2020, 08:43
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So what's the actual difference between emergency legislation which is enforceable by the law (i.e. the Police) - which has resulted in fines - and the actual law? A chap on the Isle of Man was jailed for two weeks (I realise they have lots of differences to other parts of the UK).

Genuine question - no criticism given or implied - I'm just a bit ignorant of these things.
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Old 14th Jun 2020, 10:12
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For the full details of the legislation on the public heath protection ( coronavirus) legislation you need to read the House of Commons human rights committee report of 08 April.

You May be ( or may not be ) surprised that Most of the so called rules are not laws or even rules and as usual the elf & safety types and little Hitlers of our society are creaming their pants at the chance of enforcing all sorts of rules they have invented.

the Isle of Man is not part of the UK and so has its own laws and due to the small health system has locked down hard, I needed to collect an aircraft from the IOM and this required government approval and adherence to some very strict laws ( not rules !).
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Old 14th Jun 2020, 12:09
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The interesting thing with the Isle of Man is that they haven't had a detected case of Covid-19 for 24 days.
So it is almost safe to say that there are no Virus Particles left alive on the Island.
However this does not mean that life goes on as normal, they are still banning travel to the Island, in case any new virus is brought in.
.
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Old 14th Jun 2020, 14:56
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the Isle of Man due to the small health system has locked down hard
I didnt read this as the reason. I thought it was because the IOM is a competently run jurisdiction that realised that leaving borders open as the UK did would lead to a pandemic. As scifi says, as a result

The interesting thing with the Isle of Man is that they haven't had a detected case of Covid-19 for 24 days. So it is almost safe to say that there are no Virus Particles left alive on the Island.
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Old 14th Jun 2020, 15:24
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The fact that the IOM hospital has only four ICU beds was a major factor in the hard lockdown decision along with the disproportionate effect it would have on the islands economy should the virus take hold.

The decision to cancel the TT & MGP are major blows to the Manx economy So on pure economic grounds the island could not afford a pandemic.

As to the accusations levelled at the U.K. government I think that they have be3n much more open than some EU government’s and in three or so years when the academics have looked at the different reporting criteria across Europe you won’t find a great deal of difference in mortality rates.
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Old 14th Jun 2020, 17:16
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Originally Posted by A and C View Post

As to the accusations levelled at the U.K. government I think that they have be3n much more open than some EU governmentís and in three or so years when the academics have looked at the different reporting criteria across Europe you wonít find a great deal of difference in mortality rates.
I have first hand knowledge of the French medical system misreporting Working Time Directive figures and the Spanish medical system misreporting transplant donor figures.
I think it is naive to think that all European countries are as open and honest as the UK in their reporting of the Corona-virus .
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Old 14th Jun 2020, 17:55
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Snchater

A German friend called home a week or so back and his family said that they think there is a great deal of under reporting in Germany, I know this is a bit anecdotal but a picture is starting to emerge.

I donít think this is dishonest under reporting just the use of different criteria, it would seem that in Scotland any death with a Covid19 aspect is being reported as a Covid19 death, one canít help feeling that if you tested positive for Covid19 following being run down by a bus it would go down as a Covid19 death.
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Old 14th Jun 2020, 19:00
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There are certainly questions over reporting and the different systems used in different countries. The public inquiry will determine the question of openness, which I was not discussing. What I was raising was competence. The IOM like New Zealand closed borders. Lockdown happened far earlier in NZ and, it can be argued, in the IOM. Many many things that should have been done in the UK which professionals were arguing for were not done and other things were done that clearly caused deaths. Track and trace, the app, PPE, care homes - the list is endless. I have lost friends and colleagues. The health of the UK population will suffer as a result for many years and total excess deaths will be well over 100,000. I do not intend to enter into a debate as to whether we did better or worse on this or that, and comparisons with other countries need far more in depth data analysis that is practical on this site. My belief is that many many people died and will die, and the economy will tank because politicians failed to do enough at the right time in the UK.
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Old 14th Jun 2020, 22:03
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Reality check - back to the OP's question...

Mostly, no, ab initio training for the PPL doesn't appear to have restarted. There is a rumour going around that 4th July will be the 'GO' date, but yet to be confirmed.
Meanwhile, we're not conducting ab initio training or dual checks but we ARE allowing selected pilots with proven experience to solo hire the Club aircraft. A few of them have taken members of their same household flying, no problem! I think most clubs and schools are taking the same stance.

Let's be patient and wait, it's not too long now.

All threads suffer from drift, but let's find another thread to discuss statistics and the rights and wrongs of government decisions around the World. What we COULD discuss here are the various methods different places are proposing for reducing the risk to student and instructor. I've been flying with my wife, also a pilot, trying out different face masks. The main problem seems to be fogging of spectacles. AOPA have circulated the Risk Assessments carried out at one place. I think we will all wind up making out similar, even though the detail might be slightly different. This might also be influenced by DfT guidance when it appears...

TOO
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Old 14th Jun 2020, 23:26
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Spectacles only fog because exhaled air escapes from under the mask. A basic mask called a FFP1 which you are supposed to wear on public transport to avoid your droplets infecting others is not tight fitting and will fog

If in the future you are in close proximity and wish to keep yourself safe then you need a higher level mask called a FFP3 which creates a seal around the mask. Properly fitted it cant fog.

Many HEMS units use reusable rubber masks. You must ensure the filter is a P3 filer and not just a dust filter, but if both instructor and student wear one they are both safe from each other. You still need to wash hands especially after removing / touching the mask.

Of course this assumes there is still a risk of infection when training resumes

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Old 15th Jun 2020, 08:14
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We have resumed training in Spain for all licence and ratings. This is week three of being back. Full risk assessments and and mitigation’s carried out and accepted. We temperature check everyone twice a day and keep log. Proper cleaning, proper hand washing. Masks and gloves are pointless, they are for medical professionals taught to handle and dispose of PPE correctly. Mask are not meant to be worn for long periods and they also cause issues with CO2 retention which in a an aircraft at altitude creates further problems. Protection is done with good procedures before any flying is done.

At the end of the day it’s about personal risk assessment and what people feel comfortable with doing. It’s about deciding if you are in a high risk group and making choices accordingly. I have no issue at all with resuming teaching.
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 10:32
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Sorry for my multiple posts, but the issue of virus transmission is important.

Masks are the most important method of mitigating transmission. Some studies suggest they reduce it by 70%, more than hand washing and spatial separation. Obviously most cabs are fairly leaky and there is good air circulation. Equally the incidence of the virus needs to be considered, as well as the risk to the instructor and student in terms of age, ethnicity and comorbidty. However many professional pilots and cabin crew are successfully using and working with masks. The reusable masks are easy to use because they do not need professional fit testing. I wear mine for 6 hours at a time and I am happy to answer PMs about various models and how to don / doff / test. CO2 retention is a new one on me and I cannot understand the physiology. The dead space created by a mask is insignificant, rebreathing is insignificant. Altitude should not increase CO2........S-Works please do send me any papers you have on that as I am genuinely interested.

Each person has to be comfortable with the precautions on their flight and S-Works' second paragraph is spot on. However it is not true to say masks and gloves are pointless.
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 11:09
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Originally Posted by Radgirl View Post
Sorry for my multiple posts, but the issue of virus transmission is important.

Masks are the most important method of mitigating transmission. Some studies suggest they reduce it by 70%, more than hand washing and spatial separation. Obviously most cabs are fairly leaky and there is good air circulation. Equally the incidence of the virus needs to be considered, as well as the risk to the instructor and student in terms of age, ethnicity and comorbidty. However many professional pilots and cabin crew are successfully using and working with masks. The reusable masks are easy to use because they do not need professional fit testing. I wear mine for 6 hours at a time and I am happy to answer PMs about various models and how to don / doff / test. CO2 retention is a new one on me and I cannot understand the physiology. The dead space created by a mask is insignificant, rebreathing is insignificant. Altitude should not increase CO2........S-Works please do send me any papers you have on that as I am genuinely interested.

Each person has to be comfortable with the precautions on their flight and S-Works' second paragraph is spot on. However it is not true to say masks and gloves are pointless.
Please see the attached link for starters on CO2 retention in surgical settings. Its shows clear reduction in O2 saturation and CO2 retention.

http://scielo.isciii.es/pdf/neuro/v19n2/3.pdf

There have already been auto accidents attributed to people wearing masks for long periods of time in vehicles and suffering from impairment due to Co2 retention. As a commercial diver specialising in rebreather systems I can give you chapter and verse on CO2 retention. Or you could just buy my books and make me some money.....

Altitude does not increase CO2 retention, the side effect of CO2 retention is a reduction in O2 saturation levels and as the the altitude increases the partial pressure of O2 decreases which further exasperates the problem. Please read my chapter in European Instrument Pilot on the use of O2 in aviation for further reference on the effects of CO2 and reduced partial pressure of O2 on cognitive function.

Mask are a way of mitigating transmission by people who have the virus. However those people have no place being in the cockpit in a training environment in the first place and as a result we have put preventative measures in place that should prevent people with infection even getting airside. Mask are not needed in this environment and serve no real purpose and there is still no real evidence they are of any use outside a medical setting....
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 13:43
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Sorry S-works this paper is complete rubbish. There are multiple things wrong with it, but it doesnt have any evidence about CO2 as the CO2 wasnt measured. We are talking about a barrier mask not the use of compressed gases. I am happy to discuss your other claims but this is not the time or place. People need clear advice which is that a FFP3 mask does not significantly effect gas exchange and is safe.

If you would like to tell me how to determine whether someone in my aircraft has the virus so they dont need a mask let alone how you prevent infected people getting airside, I will make you a rich man because the entire medical system in the Western World is struggling to achieve this so we can restart safe elective surgery and the airlines are folding because they have failed to do so. I apologise for disputing your claims but safety demands clear advice based on science.
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