Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Non-Airline Forums > Private Flying
Reload this Page >

Flying a small plane over water, from Northern Ireland to Scotland?

Private Flying LAA/BMAA/BGA/BPA The sheer pleasure of flight.

Flying a small plane over water, from Northern Ireland to Scotland?

Old 4th Oct 2019, 19:47
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Moray,Scotland,U.K.
Posts: 1,713
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The water now will be as warm as it gets. If you leave it till next year, there may be additional problems, depending on whether Northern Ireland and Scotland are both in the UK, both in the UK and EU, or other possibilities.
P.S. I've flown a Jodel DR1050 to Ireland 3 times. Prestwick to Dublin Weston with Donegal to Inverness return, and twice Inverness to Sligo and return. Not taking the shortest overwater track.
Maoraigh1 is offline  
Old 4th Oct 2019, 22:06
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Scotland
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
PPS Top tip I almost forgot that someone showed me years ago: Just before you coast out, switch each mag off and on in turn to check both are still working. If not, I would turn back!
Forfoxake is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2019, 02:59
  #23 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 679
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by wacits View Post
There are quite a few microlight flexwings and 3 axis which fly from Folkestone to cap Gris Nez ( 22 miles) which is the shortest distance over water to France. Most travel speed is 65-120 mph. Most will travel over the water at 80mph with life jackets etc. Grant it the channel is busy and we probably fly at 4500í possible glide back to land. North Sea less busy.
in June 2019 a group on the fly-UK did the 28 mile hop from Scotland to Northern Ireland I cannot remember the exact route taken. Again these were in microlights.all had immersion suits just on I believe.
Yes. I have watched these on YouTube, although they seem to take a while? One took 45 minutes to cross.
Originally Posted by Paul Lupp View Post
Ho hum.....
just out of interest, what are your approximate ages?
20 and 50?
50 and 80?

This could make a difference to thinking and reaction times if things go awry.

There is some good advice (dare I say it, excellent advice) above already including having a plan that includes turning back if one or both of you starts to get concerned about carrying on.

In simple terms if the plane is well maintained, checked thoroughly before the flight, the weather is good, then there is no additional risk over the 30 mile flights that you have already made.

One other thing I would add is when in flight, don't get distracted by "idle chit chat", both of you should be paying attention at all times to what is going on in, and around, the plane.
Good luck and safe flying !
Thank You. I am in my 20ís and he is 60+. But yes absolutely, there would be no discussion, we would need to be watching for clouds/disturbances and for other aircraft.

Given the risks involved we wouldnít be best served sitting chatting.
Originally Posted by Maoraigh1 View Post
The water now will be as warm as it gets. If you leave it till next year, there may be additional problems, depending on whether Northern Ireland and Scotland are both in the UK, both in the UK and EU, or other possibilities.
P.S. I've flown a Jodel DR1050 to Ireland 3 times. Prestwick to Dublin Weston with Donegal to Inverness return, and twice Inverness to Sligo and return. Not taking the shortest overwater track.
I am a British citizen and discussed divergence would only be agriculture etc not aviation.

We certainly donít intend on taking anything longer than 20 miles over water. We are not experienced in this, so we would want to take as little risk as possible.
owenc is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2019, 08:16
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Uk
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Do your planning, know your numbers find your best glide speed and rate of descent at that speed. All should be in the poh and be practised !

Letís assume for illustration 60knots and 500 feet per minute.

so if engine cuts you have a glider

if you are at 10,000 feet as you mention that gives you 20 minutes before your feet are wet (10,000/500). It will be less than that due to prop drag but for illustration Iíll leave it at 20

in 20 minutes at 60 knots youíll travel 20 nautical miles. (Airspeed not groundspeed, Iíll let you do the headwind/tailwind calculations) As the crossing is - your number - 28 (statute/nautical ?)miles the furthest you are from land is 14 miles.

All of which concludes that the risk of getting wet as a result of engine failure is mathematically non existent at 10,000 feet

still leaves in flight fire, structural problems causing Ďimmediateí descent etc as risks

Personally I wouldnít bother going as high as 10,000 feet, work the algebra backwards and you can calculate your personal minimum safe height, and how many miles in the middle you are exposed at.
In my view the biggest danger is haze and being unable to distinguish sea from sky. An older and wiser pilot than me took to one side just after my ppl and recommended not to do a channel hop until after getting an IRR.

I followed that advice, understood why on the first time I did it and pass it on whenever I can !

Safe flight
150 Driver is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2019, 10:18
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: France
Posts: 1,012
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I would still like to know the aircraft type.... Please.
Piper.Classique is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2019, 10:34
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ansiao
Posts: 2,704
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
... seconded!
Jan Olieslagers is online now  
Old 5th Oct 2019, 17:39
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Scotland
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Piper.Classique View Post
I would still like to know the aircraft type.... Please.
Probably irrelevant unless you think that low wing more likely to float for a while with cockpit above water, especially if wooden! Would still depend on a low touch down speed imho and probably retractable gear.

However, with a 150 - 200 mph cruise speed, possibly a RV?
Forfoxake is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2019, 18:42
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: France
Posts: 1,012
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Well, this whole thread is making me wonder a bit. Because the OP has been posting his intentions of a career in aviation, but it's his father who is the pilot, and something sounds a bit odd. Especially some of his replies, in particular a total lack of concern over major political changes in the near future, many of which will almost certainly have an impact on all kinds of aviation and border crossings. Which when combined with an aircraft cruising speed which isn't usual in a first aircraft purchase and a, shall we say, extreme caution over a short over water segment, makes me want to know what is going on. So I just wondered what this aircraft is.
Piper.Classique is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2019, 19:05
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Scotland
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Roger, P C.
Forfoxake is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2019, 22:01
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: 52N
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Might I suggest that the OP goes for an initial Class 1 Medical examination and shows the quack copies of his posts on this thread?
Marchettiman is offline  
Old 6th Oct 2019, 02:20
  #31 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 679
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Marchettiman View Post
Might I suggest that the OP goes for an initial Class 1 Medical examination and shows the quack copies of his posts on this thread?
what? Justify what you are saying.
Originally Posted by 150 Driver View Post
Do your planning, know your numbers find your best glide speed and rate of descent at that speed. All should be in the poh and be practised !

Letís assume for illustration 60knots and 500 feet per minute.

so if engine cuts you have a glider

if you are at 10,000 feet as you mention that gives you 20 minutes before your feet are wet (10,000/500). It will be less than that due to prop drag but for illustration Iíll leave it at 20

in 20 minutes at 60 knots youíll travel 20 nautical miles. (Airspeed not groundspeed, Iíll let you do the headwind/tailwind calculations) As the crossing is - your number - 28 (statute/nautical ?)miles the furthest you are from land is 14 miles.

All of which concludes that the risk of getting wet as a result of engine failure is mathematically non existent at 10,000 feet

still leaves in flight fire, structural problems causing Ďimmediateí descent etc as risks

Personally I wouldnít bother going as high as 10,000 feet, work the algebra backwards and you can calculate your personal minimum safe height, and how many miles in the middle you are exposed at.
In my view the biggest danger is haze and being unable to distinguish sea from sky. An older and wiser pilot than me took to one side just after my ppl and recommended not to do a channel hop until after getting an IRR.

I followed that advice, understood why on the first time I did it and pass it on whenever I can !

Safe flight
Thank you. The distance to Mainland Scotland is 21 Statute miles from outside Larne, where did I say 28? (I know that Kintyre is 12 miles but that would involve a lot of island hopping to get to the true mainland)

Where are you getting the 60 Knots figure from? If we were cruising along at 150 knots and had an engine failure would this not be a starting point?

Weather on that crossing is my main concern. I know from experience that it is difficult to get a time with decent weather over the North Channel.

Itís not rare for there to be fog in the North Channel in a High Pressure situation. In fact, often it is the case where you can see the Mull of Kintyre from our NE coast on a cloudy day, but not on a sunny, calm day. So clear conditions are rare.

Perhaps as a trial run we could try going out 5-10 miles and turning around just to see what the conditions are like and what we would be setting ourselves in for.
Originally Posted by Piper.Classique View Post
Well, this whole thread is making me wonder a bit. Because the OP has been posting his intentions of a career in aviation, but it's his father who is the pilot, and something sounds a bit odd. Especially some of his replies, in particular a total lack of concern over major political changes in the near future, many of which will almost certainly have an impact on all kinds of aviation and border crossings. Which when combined with an aircraft cruising speed which isn't usual in a first aircraft purchase and a, shall we say, extreme caution over a short over water segment, makes me want to know what is going on. So I just wondered what this aircraft is.
Iím not going to provide the type of plane as my fathers name and address appears when the registration is put in and I would rather keep that private thanks.

I donít want to be crucified by the people on this forum either, youíve given me enough digs at this stage.
owenc is offline  
Old 6th Oct 2019, 03:09
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The over water distance is insignificant if you've prepared properly. Flying over mountains or desert can be at least as risky if you haven't taken appropriate precautions.

The most important factor is your ability to make good decisions regarding the weather on the day.
On Track is offline  
Old 6th Oct 2019, 04:06
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: U.K.
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Just give us the type, not the registration. The interest is in which 2 seater you think flies that fast. It’s odd that your father is a new pilot, but is flying a very fast aircraft.

I presume your father understands best glide speed if he has a license, as you do not have a license, I understand why you find the concept confusing above.

What is REALLY odd is why your pilot father doesn’t explain the concept to you, understand what controlled airspace is, or know about SEP operations.

The funny thing is, if you just asked real questions, you’d get real answers from experienced pilots, it sounds like you’ve made something up though.

Now, back to the aircraft, tell us which mk Spitfire it is, because I’d say it’s less risk in an original TR9 if that’s what you have.

kghjfg is online now  
Old 6th Oct 2019, 04:35
  #34 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 679
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Itís a RV7.

Now youíre not getting anything else out of me.
owenc is offline  
Old 6th Oct 2019, 06:39
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Baile Atha Cliath
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If you've only flown within 30 miles then I assume you haven't landed away from yor home base yet?

Why don't you go to one of the many airfields across Ireland? Would eliminate any anxieties you have about flying over water.

Donegal, Sligo, Enniskillen and Weston all good options
MR172 is offline  
Old 6th Oct 2019, 08:16
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Uk
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by owenc View Post

Thank you. The distance to Mainland Scotland is 21 Statute miles from outside Larne, where did I say 28? (I know that Kintyre is 12 miles but that would involve a lot of island hopping to get to the true mainland)

Where are you getting the 60 Knots figure from? If we were cruising along at 150 knots and had an engine failure would this not be a starting point?

Weather on that crossing is my main concern. I know from experience that it is difficult to get a time with decent weather over the North Channel.

Itís not rare for there to be fog in the North Channel in a High Pressure situation. In fact, often it is the case where you can see the Mull of Kintyre from our NE coast on a cloudy day, but not on a sunny, calm day. So clear conditions are rare.

Perhaps as a trial run we could try going out 5-10 miles and turning around just to see what the conditions are like and what we would be setting ourselves in for.
i got the 60 knots (best glide speed) and the 500 fpm rate of descent from nowhere, hence the Ďassumeí. Both will come from the pilot operating manual which we are taught to look in, your father will have and which I donít.

if your engine fails at 150 knots youíre right that is the starting point, but the aircraft wonít keep moving at that speed without a prop turning - think about a car when the engine stops. The difference with a plane is that a pilot can keep it moving forwards using gravity-trading height for speed.

(Very simply Gravity wants the plane to fall from the sky, the wings give lift to counteract that. Drag (air friction) wants the plane to stop moving forwards and thereís no longer an engine to overcome drag. If the plane isnít moving through the air the wings stop producing lift. So you angle the plane downwards, the airspeed created by the plane Ďfallingí gives lift which means you keep flying forwards but downwards. The pilot holds the plane at the angle that returns best glide speed)

Somebody has done the sums for you in stating best glide speed which is the optimum speed to fly at without the engine working. Itís different for every model of plane and a pilot should know these numbers before taking off so that in a situation they instantly know what to fly at.

Sorry about the 28 mile reference, if the distance is only 21 then the minimum height can be lower.

incidentally, did you really mean that youíve never been more than 30 miles from base ? At 150 mph cruise you cover 2.5 miles per minute so that makes your longest flight has been 12 minutes long ?

Iím sure your father knows all this, he will have studied it in getting his licence which Iím guessing wasnít all that long ago.


150 Driver is offline  
Old 6th Oct 2019, 16:11
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: France
Posts: 1,012
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Oh, I expect they have flown round in circles a bit. My syndicate partner and I had to do that with our homebuilt, 25 km radius from base, cruising speed 130 knots. It got well boring after a while, especially the flight to confirm endurance. Three hours then fill it up again to confirm thirty minutes remaining. We actually had the thick end of an hour left, but stuck with the three hours so as not to have to do it again . I was lumbered with that one. We had some fun getting it harmonised. Ended up with aileron spades ( shameless copy from a Cap 10.) Then we had to find somewhere to put the radio and transponder where we could both see and turn the knobs. Not as easy as it might sound with a centre stick.

Heaved a big sigh of relief when the test programme was done and we could actually go somewhere. Not a Vans, btw. Nearly as quick and a lot cheaper. Stern Vega. His third and my second aircraft. Thirty years toddling around in a cub and now still getting used to twice the speed and more than twice landing distance.
Piper.Classique is offline  
Old 6th Oct 2019, 18:02
  #38 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 679
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
My father has flown further, though not with myself. Obviously itís a capable plane.
owenc is offline  
Old 6th Oct 2019, 21:32
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Moray,Scotland,U.K.
Posts: 1,713
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Best glide speed from the manual is irrelevant. Wind must be considered. If your only chance of getting near a beach or ship is into wind, then a higher glide speed may take you farther. Downwind the manual speed will be best, but with a 180į turn to ditch.
Maoraigh1 is offline  
Old 6th Oct 2019, 21:32
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Scotland
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by owenc View Post
My father has flown further, though not with myself. Obviously itís a capable plane.
Then I think you should probably trust your father, the pilot in command, to do the appropriate planning!

If he has any genuine queries about flying over to Scotland, then he will get lots of good advice by posting here.

I hope you will understand why it seems a little odd to other pilots that you are researching on his behalf. I have never expected any passenger to plan their flight with me. Indeed, I owe them a duty of care to do it properly myself.

Forfoxake is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2022 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.