Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Non-Airline Forums > Private Flying
Reload this Page >

Strange attitudes to female pilots.

Wikiposts
Search
Private Flying LAA/BMAA/BGA/BPA The sheer pleasure of flight.

Strange attitudes to female pilots.

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 1st Aug 2002, 17:29
  #1 (permalink)  

The Original Whirly
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Strange attitudes to female pilots.

Well, I'll probably get accused of sexism, or being "obsessed with gender"; it's happened before. But never mind; I'll risk it.

Many of us women know we run into what might be considered rather strange attitudes when we fly, especially considering that it's 92 years since the first woman got her PPL. Here are some that either happened to me, or that I heard of:

1) After flying in to Pembrey, talking on the radio, screwing up on the radio and asking for practically everything to be repeated, landing, buying fuel, and booking in, I remark on the lovely beach you can see from downwind. "Oh", says the airfield manager, "do you fly?"

2) Two women I know flew to an airfield in Corsica. They were accused of hiding someone in the back, since everyone just knew they couldn't possibly have flown themselves there; a man must have helped them. They had a very hard time managing to leave. The fact that the aircraft was a two seater seemed to escape everyone's notice.

3) My favourite; told to me by a friend:
A man walked into a flying school.
Woman behind desk: Can I help you.
Man: Er..I'd like to know about learning to fly
Woman: OK, I can tell you about that
Man: Well...I think I should talk to a flying instructor
Woman: That's alright, I'm a flying instructor
Man: Oh...well. I really should talk to the Chief Flying Instructor
Woman: Fine, I'm the Chief Flying Instructor
Man: Oh, I see...well...I really think I need to talk to the owner of the school
Woman: No problem; I own this flying school...

It happened; I didn't make it up, honest!

OK, over to the rest of you.

BANNED from this thread - comments by men that they think women make good pilots, bad pilots, better/worse pilots than men, or whatever; we've heard it all before and it's irrelevant. I'm just curious to know what other women have run into. And I was bored today anyway, and just fancied starting a new thread.

And believe it or not, I mean this as a lighthearted thread, not a tirade against prejudice, so let's try and keep it that way. If it degenerates I'll delete the whole thing. That's a promise!!!
Whirlybird is offline  
Old 1st Aug 2002, 18:00
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Spanish Riviera
Posts: 637
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The strange attitude within the RAF is that, at every opportunity, the 'powers that be' want to parade the girls in front of the cameras. Suffice to say, discontent is rising (amongst the girls) and many now refuse to take part in the charade.

PS my flying instructor was female and the only strange attitude I encountered was somewhere near the stall.
Whipping Boy's SATCO is offline  
Old 1st Aug 2002, 18:01
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Greystones, Ireland (but born a Kerryman!)
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
BANNED from this thread - comments by men that they think women make good pilots, bad pilots, better/worse pilots
than men, or whatever; we've heard it all before and it's irrelevant. I'm just curious to know what other women have
run into. And I was bored today anyway, and just fancied starting a new thread.
Ummm. Okay, I was going to say that I trust female pilots more, but instead I'll skip it and point out that female engineers
seem to labour under the same burden - I've been in a situation before where a guy was asking a question about programming,
and then proceeded to ignore the correct answer that the girl beside me gave (twice!) and then accepted it without question
when I repeated it.
And as for Prof. Jane Grimson (first female engineering graduate from TCD back in the 70s), if I had an euro for every letter
addressed to her that started with "Dear Sir", well, I'd have my own plane by now...

Humans. Sheesh.
EI_Sparks is offline  
Old 1st Aug 2002, 18:11
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,085
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Smile Men and women are equal

I'm not a high-timer, but based upon my limited personal experience I haven't seen any reason to believe that flying is easier for men or women, or that either sex has any inherent advantage.

If this is indeed true, then it seems to me that the time has long passed for the abolition of all gender-based FAI records. I.e., there is no need for feminine records, which imply that it's unfair to judge women by the same standards as male pilots.
MLS-12D is offline  
Old 1st Aug 2002, 19:19
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 1,966
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
A white girl taught me to fly in black Africa - she overcame everyone's prejudices by being bloody good at what she did.

I count as many girl pilots as friends as I do boy pilots. Okay you both know who you are!

The thing that I find even stranger than gender-ism in flying is that most folk think that you need to have independent means to own or operate an aeroplane.

That to me is a myth that needs debunked!

Stik
stiknruda is offline  
Old 1st Aug 2002, 22:45
  #6 (permalink)  

Official PPRuNe Chaplain
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Witnesham, Suffolk
Age: 80
Posts: 3,498
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I remember the shock-horror reactions when it was announced that we were to have a female priest in our team.

That soon changed, and she's now highly popular.

I think the trigger is often fear of the unknown, rather than gender prejudice (there's some of that, too).

But Whirly - really - can a woman fly a food-mixer?
Keef is offline  
Old 1st Aug 2002, 22:51
  #7 (permalink)  
Final 3 Greens
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Whirly

It doesn't surprise me, sad to say - life is full of stereotypes and unconscious judgements..... not that I ever suffer from this human failing you understand!
 
Old 2nd Aug 2002, 07:07
  #8 (permalink)  
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 14,217
Received 48 Likes on 24 Posts
It happens in many walks of life, and makes little sense in any. One of my hobbies happens to be cooking, and I've been met with utterl incredulity on several occasions when I try to chat about my hobby in otherwise completely female company. Any who'd like to try and be credible as a male nurse.

That said, sitting both sides of the professional aviation fence, there are far more women pilots, with fewer problems of this nature, than women Engineers.

G
Genghis the Engineer is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2002, 08:10
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 1,775
Received 19 Likes on 10 Posts
When I was learning to glide, I was asked to drive one of the club tug pilots to bring back a Tiger Moth tug from servicing. This particular pilot was very petite and extremely feminine (last heard of her when her photo was in the paper as half of the first British all female airline crew).

When we arrived at the hangar, the engineers started to talk to me and, even when we pointed out the she was the pilot, they found it difficult to look at her when discussing details of the servicing and I'm sure they thought we were pulling their legs.

When she placed a huge cushion on the rear seat and then proceeded to strap in, their faces were a picture.
pulse1 is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2002, 10:51
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Devon, UK
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Old story, WW2 vintage, when female ATA pilots used to ferry all sorts of war-planes from factories to operational airfields -

High-ranking RAF person (scrambled-egg on hat-peak, etc), looking for a lift from some factory somewhere-or-other back to his unit, told there was a Lanc out there just going his way, climb on board.
Races out, climbs in, settles into navigator's perch.
Looks around, nobody else there.
Four Merlins start up, one after another.
Then notices a young girl, head down, hunched in the left-hand seat, reading Pilot's Notes.

WS

Last edited by White Shadow; 2nd Aug 2002 at 14:39.
White Shadow is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2002, 11:45
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: London
Posts: 229
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I do hope that this will be taken in the right spirit (bodes well doesn't it...), but my recollection is that the first time I encountered female pilots or instructors, I was surprised, but only because they were/are such a rarity. Similar to bird spotters travelling hundreds of miles to see a lesser spotted dingle dangle, it doesn't make the individual in question any better or worse in any category, just a rarity, which warrants attention.

I'm also surprised as flying is one of those subjects that attracts males because of the kudos, gadgets and boasting opportunities it presents. Most of the women I know aren't interested in gadgets, boasting in the pub and being the big 'I am'. I can feel this slipping away from me now, but despite the fact that flying doesn't have to be about any of those things, it generally becomes it with such a massive male input and influence, hence my initial surprises (not at the fact that they were there, but that there were any at all, where I had previously seen none).

Do I need to put 'sorry' at the end of this? I hope not, because an honest opinion is only that.
Grim Reaper 14 is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2002, 11:52
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: London
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Pulse 1

I think it must be an ongoing 'cultural' thing!

Anyone who has travelled to Turkey, Cyprus, Egypt ... particularly that part of the world, will know that women become almost "invisible" for any business/car/aeroplane etc, etc, purposes - even if the woman wants to buy, it's the man they talk to!

(Not that different from computer shops, car salesmen etc in the UK)!

But it is changing, it will change, in the UK at least. My Instructor was male, but once I'd got my PPL, the first planes I used to hire were owned / operated by a woman (who's an Examiner, IR rated etc).
ppl(a) is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2002, 12:14
  #13 (permalink)  

 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Smurph Castle
Age: 45
Posts: 498
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Grim,

Not at all, I'm a woman and I agree with you I think. I get more attention from loveable but geeky gadget/machine-obsessed blokes than any other, because they think I'm some kind of dream woman who they can talk to about these things, due to the flying business. I generally disappoint them, because I'm not very geeky - trying harder to be, as it happens. I get less interest from the posers, however, in case I present a threat...

So far, very little obvious prejudice encountered over gender, but if you happen to be young as well it can feel a struggle not to be a bit segregated, because all the older men are unsure of how to relate to you.

That said, I did find myself being referred to as 'that lady pilot' approaching a busy circuit recently. Three pilots and an A/G controller were discussing my position with absolutely no thought of talking to me. I got a bit worried as I thought I had everyone in sight and suddenly there was this strange other plane I didn't know about. Took me a minute to realise the lady pilot was me!

Staring into this screen for so long can't be good for my future medicals...
Penguina is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2002, 12:55
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Dorset, UK
Posts: 619
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Grim Reaper 14 & Penquina

As a woman pilot have have to agree with both of you.

I do not have a nerdy geeky interest in things technical - I just like playing with them

So if that means finding out about the basic workings of aircraft, very fast cars, computers, mobile phones, GPS, digital cameras, or any other gizmo, that has taken my fancy .... then I do it, but only on a need to know basis.

I have spent nearly all my life working in so called male oriented environments, with the same situation for hobbies. Like many women pilots, I really like men & enjoy their company, but I can't be bothered to get into the usual competitiveness, then some men seem to indulge in, at work & at play.

Also I never let the "strange attitudes to female pilots" worry me at all, I usually just find them a laugh.
Norwich Airport, walking through door marked Air Crew Only ....
Security Man "are you 2 ladies with a pilot?"
Me "No ... us 2 ladies ARE the pilots"

Although, when I do meet a geniune unrecontsructed male chauvanist dinosaur, I just cannot resist the temptation to wind him up.

Last edited by distaff_beancounter; 2nd Aug 2002 at 14:19.
distaff_beancounter is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2002, 13:00
  #15 (permalink)  

The Original Whirly
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Grim Reaper,

Good points actually. It reminds me of a thread I planned to start last time I was bored, but I forgot about it. Being into gadgets and similar is only one reason to fly. The other main one, as I see it (since it was mine ), is being like a bird, up there away from everyone, slipping the surly bonds of earth and all that. Followed closely, for me, by being in control

There are probably lots of other reasons too.

Hmmm...maybe I will start a new thread....
Whirlybird is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2002, 14:33
  #16 (permalink)  

stiletto psychopath mk4
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Whirly,

Couldn't agree more about the major reason for flying. Every time I head off down the runway and feel the wheels lift off, I can't stop a big grin spreading across my face as the ground drops away below. (I know I should be anxiously thinking what I need to do in case of an Efato, but constantly expecting the worst kind of defeats the whole object! )

Interestingly, although there are obviously far more men than women at my club, I've never felt patronised or regarded as different because of my gender. The closest I've come to it was on one of my solo landaways at Lydd, when the FISO told me to park next to the Piper XXXX...short pause..."that's the bluey-green one in front of the tower". Just as well he mentioned the colour - I'd still be taxying in circles now!
singaporegirl is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2002, 17:22
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: South of England
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
- A bad experience in Florida with an extremely patronising & chauvanist instructor on the bfr.

- If I'm with Mr B and walk into a pilot shop/flying club/whatever, the attention will always be directed at Mr B, even though he doesn't fly himself.

- I often get bad vibes from the 'posers' who I assume see me as some kind of a threat (A bit weird cos I'm very shy and retiring!)

And as a side point, I work in aviation, on a very male-biased side of the business. I'd estimate that one in every twenty chaps that telephone assume I'm the secretary and will blatantly show their unwillingness to 'talk aeroplanes' with a woman. Quite amusing really.
Miss Bigglesworth is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2002, 18:21
  #18 (permalink)  
High Flying Bird
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Old Sarum ish
Posts: 2,297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Arrow

I've not had too many problems, although one of the 'old timers' that occasionally mans the phone at our clubhouse initially refused to talk to me, or even acknowledge my presence. My instructor has always been really supportive (when he's not taking the pi55), and makes a point of pushing me forward and letting everyone know I'm a pilot, and not a hangar-on.

Something which I've experienced a few times, and I'm sure the men don't, is the audience I get when taxiing. Quite often get 2 or 3 guys standing staring at me. I just give them a little wave and get on with it.
AerBabe is offline  
Old 3rd Aug 2002, 11:26
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Downunder
Age: 22
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Whirly

Great you started this thread, although what I am about to post you may consider enough to pull the plug on the lot as it doesnt quite fit your original mold - I hope not.

And now I am about to blow at least half my cover in owning up to being a woman too! I am pretty new to aviation and I must say I have been impressed at the camaraderie I've experienced thus far - I feel privileged to have been able to develop such a passion and to be amongst others who are also DRIVEN!! However, SO FEW OF THEM ARE WOMEN!

I also recently read about some research done recently at Arizona State, Embry-Riddle and several other institutions about the paucity of women coming through collegiate aviation. Article stated that approx. "6% of all US pilots are women with only 3 % of airline transport pilots are women". I'm sure this doesnt surprise anyone, but somehow putting it in stark figures like that still jolts. Particularly if as MLS-12D suggests there is no difference between males and females when it comes to ability.

So why is this so?

Certainly, the culture around when I was in my teens and early adulthood - so long ago now I dont fancy dwelling on defining the interval - just didnt support the notion of women being engineers, pilots, busdrivers etc etc. And I got unknowingly swamped or persuaded by this, so I imagine lots of others of my peers did too. But I would have thought that for young people these days the cultural thing would have to be far less a culprit.

I guess I have to be wrong about that though as it cant be the genes that are to blame for so few women pilots - surely.

One thing that I have had a couple of times now though is an observation about how women - me being an example - tend to have a better (more sensitive or intuitive is what is meant here) "feel" for the controls, at least in the early stages of training. Is this significant? Have others (women that is) had this reaction to their early efforts or heard of similar?

In closing I have to say though that the blokes I've met thus far (the pilots - bit different with the engineers) are simply fantastic guys and have provided me with tremendous inspiration and support. Thanks guys.
Captsumday is offline  
Old 3rd Aug 2002, 11:51
  #20 (permalink)  

The Original Whirly
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Rio-vfr,

Don't worry; I have no intention of deleting this thread; it's getting rather interesting!

I said what I did at the start because of earlier experiences with threads of this sort on PPRuNe. Way back I was accused of being "obsessed with gender". And in many threads like this you end up with some well meaning male saying something like: "Well, I think that women pilots are good; I don't see them as any different from men; they might even be better". Well, I hate to criticise anything that's meant as a compliment, but I see that as emphasising that the sky is blue, when I've commented that a surprising number of people say it's purple with green stripes! (Comments about if God meant women to fly he'd have made the sky pink are not allowed here, or I really WILL pull this thread!!!! )

Anyway, when I was growing up the same thing applied. In fact, I remember a conversation with a teacher at school when I was about 8. She asked us what we wanted to do; all the boys wanted to be engine drivers or similar, the girls wanted to be teachers or nurses. She asked if any girls wanted to do anything different, and I remember thinking, in almost suicidal despair: "What else can girls do?" A little later I read about women being parachuted into enemy territory as secret agents in the Second World War, and decided that would do for me! I longed for a war for years. Never occurred to me that I could actually fly the aircraft taking them there, or do anything similar in peacetime, not till I was a lot older. There weren't many female role models for adventurous young girls back then. (I'm not 93, honest; we often don't realise how quickly the world has changed)

On women being sensitive/intuitive when learning to fly; I sometimes wonder if I had that knocked out of me by instructors who seemed determined to break flying down into component parts. It often felt that way, but I'm not sure. You can't do that with helicopter flying; hovering has to be done completely by feel, so maybe that's why I seemed to find it easier, at least in the beginning. But as with all generalisations about men and women, I suspect there are many many exceptions.

I too have found that many men have been helpful, encouraging, or simply treated me as just another pilot (I prefer the last of those). I didn't feel it needed to be said - a bit like emphasising that the sky is blue. But that's just me.

One other thing - you're from "downunder". When I was flying in the US, women pilots were still in a minority, but no-one seemed even remotely surprised that I was a pilot. Other British women have told me the same thing. Anyone noticd any other cultural differences?
Whirlybird is offline  


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.