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Dodgy or legit?

Old 27th Apr 2017, 18:32
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Yes I built my experience with passengers who shared the cost on my plane. i think I have more experience. My flight school is more than happy with me renting planes out with Wingly, as I can fly much more as well.
So what you are saying is the payments you receive from Wingly allows you to fly more and make flights you wouldn't otherwise be doing?
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 18:42
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Originally Posted by CessnaSteven View Post
Well you are not the CAA or the EASA who have agreed to let me hare cost no matter what flight I choose to do. I know there are quite a few CPLs registered on wingly who are also flying at cost price just to share the joy of flying and save on costs when building hours on Multi Propeller planes.
CPL ME IFR choosing to fly at cost is very very different though isn't it. I mean, CPL ME IFRs are paying airlines to fly Narrow and medium bodied jets around europe, so we already know that that is fine.
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 19:59
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Can I ask those who are so critical of these cost sharing matching services how many Wingly / Skyuber flights have you personally done? What problems did you actually have?

Whilst all the dire consequences you describe are theoretically possible: can you quote a single instance where such a problem has actually happened in all the hundreds, or maybe even thousands, of cost share flights that have been done?

As I indicated in my earlier post: I have done several of these flights, stopping only when the FAA proscribed them, and never had the slightest problem.

Yet again: cost sharing flights are entirely legal and, in CAA and EASA land at least, the mechanism by which they are arranged is irrelevant.

Does that guarantee that nothing will ever go wrong on a cost share flight? No. But given that they are legal, ordinary pilot insurance will apply and, as I said above, how many such accidents have there been so far?

Does it guarantee that a pilot won't do something stupid? No. But the same pilot might make the same stupid mistake with a passenger who is not paying a share of the costs.

Does it guarantee that a rider won't have an unrealistic expectation of being able to fly regardless of conditions? No. But I described how I used to deal with this in my earlier post. I never had a problem with the flights I cancelled including when my plans changed even though the weather was fine to fly in.

Does it guarantee that someone won't try to abuse the rules and offer a taxi service? No. But if they do they should be dealt with by the authorities exactly as if they had put an ad offering an air taxi service in the Sunday Times or broken any other aviation rule.

In summary: these cost sharing services are legal, there is no great history of the kinds of problems suggested in earlier posts but those feeling uncomfortable with them are free not to use them.
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 20:23
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Being a CPL with my own aircraft why would I? If any of my friends or family told me they were flying via this site though, I would try my best to put them off. Especially if it was with a low houred PPL.

Hours alone however are not a good enough way to measure, it's recency that counts. I would not like the idea of anyone I know flying with someone that has done the minimum hours and what is to stop that happening?

How much checking of recency and hours does Wingly do? When you pay for an air taxi or experience flight via a school you know that the pilot is in currency and proficient to carry out that flight.

Yes, cost sharing is legal but that is based on a flight that is being carried out anyway with an empty seat. The adverts on Wingly are clearly offering a service to suit the passenger and, as has been alluded to above, flights are being carried out that wouldn't otherwise be. The fact that the pilot and hiring organisation are making money is not a positive in wingly's favour but all the more reason why these flights are probably illegal.
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 20:48
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The adverts on Wingly are clearly offering a service to suit the passenger
If that is true, they are illegal and should be subject to regulatory action. That said: are these illegal flights really a substantial part of what is being offered? I have never used Wingly, but did used to offer flights on Skyuber and still occasionally look at the flights being offered there out of curiosity. On that site, at least, I have never seen any flight offered that was not on the basis "I'm going from X to Y on Z date".
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 20:52
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Cessna Steven

I thin flying clubs don't consider experience flights a major source of revenue, Even you must be fooling your self if that is the case.
You either don't know very much about aviation or you have an association with Wingly - which one is it ?
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 20:55
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OK, here goes:

Trial flying lessons are a major source of income for any flying school - even if they are marginal business, they can be substantial profit after the fixed costs have been paid.

Flying schools that rent out their aircraft so as pilots can undercut/take cash from their business are losing vital business. And if a flying school isn't making money on trial flying lessons, why is it doing them?

Interestingly, all three operators in Scotland are renting their aircraft from somewhere. Although it seems that the one renting from Tayside isn't anymore!

If anyone at the airfield I own decides to go down this route, I think we may be renegotiating the airfield lease and the hangarage terms and conditions.

Although........

Perhaps this will, instead, just become another way for flying schools to advertise trial flying lessons. Just like air b'n'b seems to be becoming just another way for traditional bed and breakfasts to advertise?
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 20:56
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Cessna Steven

Every profile that flies on wingly can be asked to verify themselves if they don't verify themselves by sending their passport
So a "copy of the passport is the key" ....... and you think that it's not extremely easy to produce that in any format in any language for any country. So when you get a copy of the passport was is the criteria for assessment
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 21:14
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Perhaps this will, instead, just become another way for flying schools to advertise trial flying lessons
I think this misses the point a bit. Flying schools can perfectly legitimately advertise trial lessons any way they like from Wingly to an national TV ad campaign.

The ONLY thing a private pilot can legally use Wingly or Skyuber for is to advertise a genuine cost sharing flight that they are already planning to do. If they cross that line, they can and should be done for it.
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 21:20
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Couldn't agree more xrayalpha

Flying schools that rent out their aircraft so as pilots can undercut/take cash from their business are losing vital business. And if a flying school isn't making money on trial flying lessons, why is it doing them?
There is going to be an interesting Vib in flying clubs all over the Uk soon with PPLs walking out with their wingly pax and instructors earning nothing nor building hours because the experience flights/trial lessons have dried up.

Having looked at the number of pilots signed up to wingly together with 73k likes on Facebook and the recent media exposure, if allowed to continue, this will fundamentally change the chances of getting a job as a pilot - PPLs hour building for professional licenses will find that getting that first job has just got a lot harder.
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 21:44
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Spot on GBS
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 21:46
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There is going to be an interesting Vib in flying clubs all over the Uk soon with PPLs walking out with their wingly pax and instructors earning nothing nor building hours because the experience flights/trial lessons have dried up.
I think that is overdoing it a bit. Certainly when I have looked at the Skyuber flights being offered, there aren't more than half a dozen or so, and almost all of them are from X to Y on a specific date.

It's hard to see this killing off the Flight Experience market, especially as the biggest payoff from those flight school experience flights is people signing up with the school to do a PPL.
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 21:50
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Originally Posted by Jonzarno View Post
I think that is overdoing it a bit. Certainly when I have looked at the Skyuber flights being offered, there aren't more than half a dozen or so, and almost all of them are from X to Y on a specific date.

It's hard to see this killing off the Flight Experience market, especially as the biggest payoff from those flight school experience flights is people signing up with the school to do a PPL.
That really isn't the case, if the sign up rate was high enough, they would do them for free.... most experience flights are given as gift vouchers and the flier often loves the "once in a lifetime" part of it, but has little to no interest in investing in a PPL
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 21:54
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Originally Posted by JumpJumpJump View Post
That really isn't the case, if the sign up rate was high enough, they would do them for free.... most experience flights are given as gift vouchers and the flier often loves the "once in a lifetime" part of it, but has little to no interest in investing in a PPL
I dunno! I did an experience flight and liked it so much that I went on to do a PPL, Night and Instrument ratings!

(It also begs the question: how many people would sign up if they did do them for free??)

Last edited by Jonzarno; 27th Apr 2017 at 21:59. Reason: Typo
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 21:58
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That's you..... Me too..... But I did an experience flight with a 95% conviction that I wished too become a pilot. The demographic of most voucher fliers is very different... Normally a male, aged 35 to 50, with a stable career and family background
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 22:13
  #116 (permalink)  

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As a private car owner/driver I'm allowed to "car share". However, I'm not allowed to advertise my "services" and would need to be very careful about not contravening the terms and conditions of my insurance. I wonder who insures these "Wingly Warriors" and what happens in the aftermath of an accident.
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 22:18
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The reason I've a PPL, IRR and own a plane is that my wife bought me an experience flight for my 40th. She's regretted it ever since !
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 22:34
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I'm not denying that it happens, however, the demographic here is clearly going to have many more PPLs due to a voucher than the national average.

I have had vouchers for
-track days... I am not an advanced driver
-hairstyling - I am not keen on becoming a hairdresser (i recommend this for all fathers)
-Somellier day .....

I could go on
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 22:38
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Jonzarno

biggest payoff from those flight school experience flights is people signing up with the school to do a PPL.
The conversion rate is close to zero - survival of most schools is due to the selling of "experience flights" as gifts at Christmas - and that's a fact. Indeed, until recently 40% of people never used their gifts - the percentage has lowered over the last few years .......

and, of course, that is where wingly will do very well, thank you very much !!! They'll pocket the service charge AND the money on unused gifts. Of course, pre wingly, the flying club would have benefited in this way .... generally, to GAs benefit too.
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 22:42
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Originally Posted by ShyTorque View Post
As a private car owner/driver I'm allowed to "car share". However, I'm not allowed to advertise my "services" and would need to be very careful about not contravening the terms and conditions of my insurance. I wonder who insures these "Wingly Warriors" and what happens in the aftermath of an accident.
This has already been widely discussed. Cost sharing is permitted in CAA and EASA land. The only debate here is about the channel that puts pilots and riders in touch with each other:

Is a friend from the flying club OK? (If I meet someone from my flying club in the bar and we agree to fly to L2K together and share the costs, why is that different from the same friend seeing that I'm planning to do the flight on Wingly and deciding to join me?).

A non pilot friend?

A friend of a non pilot friend?

Someone you meet at the pub?

Someone who answers a Wingly or Skyuber post?

As things stand, all of the above are OK PROVIDED:

1. The pilot was going to a destination anyway and all those cost sharing are just "along for the ride".

2. The costs are shared according to CAA / EASA rules

Most of the criticisms of this are based on the possibility that someone MIGHT break the rules. Well, if they do, they should be hauled over the coals for doing so.

But if they have followed the rules, which are quite clear, there should not be any problem.
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