Private Flying LAA/BMAA/BGA/BPA The sheer pleasure of flight.

Dodgy or legit?

Old 27th Apr 2017, 12:18
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JJJ,
Very interesting, and I hadn't thought of that at all. I think my main line of thinking would be you'd have someone turn up to the airfield, maybe get a bottle of pepsi (or other such drink) from the snack bar, and go from there. The idea that you could deal with drugs and drunks didn't factor, but is very, very valid.

I guess a reasonable level of precaution could counter that (or at least greatly reduce the risk), in that as anyone who has flown commercially knows about security checks etc, the passenger shouldn't be averse to being asked a few questions and, if bringing on luggage, having it checked (though I'm not sure of the legalities of this).

With regards to friends and family etc, many want to come, but none want to pay. I guess Wingly gives you people who are happy to pay, which is why I still see it as being quite good.

I fully understand though
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 12:34
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Originally Posted by tobster911
JJJ,
Very interesting, and I hadn't thought of that at all. I think my main line of thinking would be you'd have someone turn up to the airfield, maybe get a bottle of pepsi (or other such drink) from the snack bar, and go from there. The idea that you could deal with drugs and drunks didn't factor, but is very, very valid.

I guess a reasonable level of precaution could counter that (or at least greatly reduce the risk), in that as anyone who has flown commercially knows about security checks etc, the passenger shouldn't be averse to being asked a few questions and, if bringing on luggage, having it checked (though I'm not sure of the legalities of this).

With regards to friends and family etc, many want to come, but none want to pay. I guess Wingly gives you people who are happy to pay, which is why I still see it as being quite good.

I fully understand though
Not just drink and drugs but mental health and terrorism - what security steps are you going to take to vet passengers?
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 13:14
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Human nature being time invariant it'll be only a matter of time before a too-confident pilot pushes on into a situation beyond their competence (for ego or passenger pressure reasons), or an unbalanced passenger causes mayhem in the air or on the ground, or any one of a multitude of previously-known events occurs, many of which are documented in air transport safety agency files related to chisel charters and similar. While the skin may have changed, the product being offered is seeking to solve a challenge nearly as old as aviation: finding a way to charge a punter to take an air taxi, without the expense and inconvenience of an AOC. It's crossed the mind of many of us but, as I mentioned before, a reading of the shame files - and an appreciation of some of the real misery caused - is enough to dissuade a thinking pilot.

I tend to agree with GBS that worldly experience is easily discarded but, in all humility, I suggest that a reading of some of those safety agency reports is worthwhile. I can think of several high-profile cases where there has been goodwill in the beginning, but where lives have been lost, careers ruined and parties financially destroyed. In a few cases it's all turned pear-shaped even in similar flights commenced with the best of intentions: for example, voluntary patient transport accidents come to mind.

An AOC and operations by commercial pilots do not guarantee complete safety and, indeed, we all know there's always a suspect fringe in charter operation; it's a hard enough challenge keeping the risks from that fringe acceptable. But with 100 years of data on how humans behave when flying it's folly to lower the bar further.
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 13:33
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Does anybody know how it works wrt the money - do you say I want, say, 100 and that's what the passenger pays and what you get - does Wingly get a cut or are they doing this as a charity?
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 13:43
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GBS, as far as I can make out, the pilot says how much the flight will cost per seat. i.e plane rental is 100ph, it's a 2 seater, so they charge 50 per seat (with PIC already occupying one of the two seats). Wingly will then advertise that flight for, say 56, and take the 12% profit for themselves (not certain if it's 12%, but it does ring a bell).
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 14:04
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Thinking about this, how can you advertise a fixed cost for the flight before you have landed, given that the airborne time will not be know until the aircraft has landed?
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 14:08
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Originally Posted by JumpJumpJump
Thinking about this, how can you advertise a fixed cost for the flight before you have landed, given that the airborne time will not be know until the aircraft has landed?
Good question, but I guess you can get a very good idea. For an A to A sightseeing flight, it's a bit easier as if you're slow one way, you'll be faster the other way, so a 1 hour flight will nearly always be that 1 hour.

For an A-B, I guess you just have to guess, and err on the side of caution. i.e, from where I am to Southend is approximately 25 minutes, so if I charge for 30 or 35 minutes, I'm pretty much covered
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 14:11
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Originally Posted by tobster911
GBS, as far as I can make out, the pilot says how much the flight will cost per seat. i.e plane rental is 100ph, it's a 2 seater, so they charge 50 per seat (with PIC already occupying one of the two seats). Wingly will then advertise that flight for, say 56, and take the 12% profit for themselves (not certain if it's 12%, but it does ring a bell).
Tks, So it looks like PPLs are paying a third party agent to provide customers from the general public
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 14:13
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Pretty much. Although technically, the pilot doesn't pay that, the customer does (just semantics though)
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 14:28
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Pretty much. Although technically, the pilot doesn't pay that, the customer does (just semantics though)
which is just as bad... or worse

you'll be faster the other way, so a 1 hour flight will nearly always be that 1 hour.
*jokingly* If you fly out in a 152 with a 90 knot tailwind.... you are never coming home
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 14:33
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Originally Posted by tobster911
Pretty much. Although technically, the pilot doesn't pay that, the customer does (just semantics though)
Unfortunately, this is where the "customers" expectation is formed - if it looks like an airline ticket, sounds like an airline ticket and is bought like an airline ticket then ................

Last edited by Good Business Sense; 27th Apr 2017 at 14:53.
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 15:17
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Because if there is any dispute stemming from equipment failure then they are likely to go for the owning company (school or Ltd co group) rather than the individual. Especially if the individual is young and skint.

with more people flying schools will be able to rent out their planes more. More people will want to sign up to flight schools and they were brought in to their schools indirectly by Wingly. Groups who own the plane will see this as a good way to get a usage rate of a plane and more people will be able to own a plane if the cost of flying can be brought down
There isn't any extra flying being done here though is there? All these sightseeing flights were going to happen anyway with no passenger. right?

Sorry, I don't buy it. trial flights etc. are all very good but should be done by CPL's.
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 15:33
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There have been a few threads on this topic over the last couple of years:

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...aa-update.html
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...easa-land.html
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...ght=commercial

I made the following post which is relevant here:

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...ml#post8961202

SD
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 15:52
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Originally Posted by CessnaSteven
Pilots just post the flights and get to share the costs. I haven't payed anyone on Wingly. For what I see they charge the people who book to fly with me and this is not a problem as I get to fly for cheaper and share my thrill of flying with new people.
Same thing
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 15:54
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Cessna Steven

Unfortunately you are looking at the most improbable worst case even taking the time to type it here. Meanwhile Pilots who are posting on Wingly are actually flying for cheaper. Well Done
You'll be surprised how quickly the improbable comes back to bite you in the arse. Would much prefer that a similar service was made utilising out of work CPLs.

3 years from now, would you proudly sit in your first airline interview and honestly answer the question "During you hour building, did you ever fly for wingly or a similar operator?"
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 15:55
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Originally Posted by CessnaSteven
Unfortunately you are looking at the most improbable worst case even taking the time to type it here. Meanwhile Pilots who are posting on Wingly are actually flying for cheaper. Well Done



All my Wingly passenger so far have been verified by Wingly. I don't fly with them unless it shows they have a verified passport and a photo. Passengers are happy to oblige when I have asked them to do so. Once they make a booking I can even contact the people by phone to get to know more about them. I am the captain of my plane and I have the right to choose who i want to fly with. Wingly has no problem as I have to be the one to accept the booking with someone I want to fly with.
How can they verify anyone particularly as they sell gift vouchers to person A who gives it to person B

Last edited by Good Business Sense; 27th Apr 2017 at 16:19.
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 16:09
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Originally Posted by CessnaSteven
Why though? Wingly seems like a great idea with more people flying schools will be able to rent out their planes more. More people will want to sign up to flight schools and they were brought in to their schools indirectly by Wingly. Groups who own the plane will see this as a good way to get a usage rate of a plane and more people will be able to own a plane if the cost of flying can be brought down
Because flight schools already make money from selling trial lessons and experience flights, which help them to run at absolutely pisspoor margins so that they can offer competitive hour building rates and packages to their students and members. The conversion rate from an experience flight generated by a voucher is absolutely awful, you are seriously looking at about 1 in 1000 or worse.

Group owners don;t neccesarily want to get maximum usage out of the aircraft, they just want the aircraft up in the air now and again and that all members pay their fair share, infact there are sometimes when groups want the aircraft to fly less, especially when an engine overhaul is coming up and it is getting close to december and the kitty is looking a little bleak.

May I ask your age and experience? I don't hold that against you, but it may help me pitch this conversation a little better.
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 16:16
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JJJ, Because I back Cessna Steven as well, I'm interested, so my age is 21, and experience wise, not very, 55 hours TT, 10 PIC. I'll say it again just to reiterate, I am not currently advertising flights on Wingly (though I am a member), as I want to build my experience and comfort levels a bit more before I take other passengers.
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 16:18
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Flying Clubs are also going to be hit very badly - their "experience flight" doesn't sound at all appealing compared to the exotica on offer in Wingly.
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 16:39
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How do wingly prevent pilots and guests (read passengers) from negotiating a regular a to b service? for example PPL flies person from Wycombe to Bristol due to Business trip, this becomes a weekly routine. How is that policed against by Wingly, obviously, they will say it is not their problem, but this really is opening up many doors to go spectacularly wrong from a legal standpoint
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