Degradation of will to learn how to fly
Is this thread a portal into some strange alternate reality, possibly one being authored by an aeronautical David Nobbs?
A school which accepted a pilot as a professional pilot apprentice, gets them to 45 hours without a basic grasp of flying norms, has an instructor so emotionally affected by one bad hour with a student that he refuses to fly for the rest of the day then retires because of it, not to mention a school which takes an anonymous internet thread as part of the decision making process in terminating a student - who didn't contribute to the thread.
Either this is a work of surrealist fiction, or the school needs shutting down quickly before it does any more damage.
G
A school which accepted a pilot as a professional pilot apprentice, gets them to 45 hours without a basic grasp of flying norms, has an instructor so emotionally affected by one bad hour with a student that he refuses to fly for the rest of the day then retires because of it, not to mention a school which takes an anonymous internet thread as part of the decision making process in terminating a student - who didn't contribute to the thread.
Either this is a work of surrealist fiction, or the school needs shutting down quickly before it does any more damage.
G
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 22nd Dec 2015 at 09:24.
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'Chicken-......'
Oh you poor thing!
You tried to prepare him for a test 'without even knowing an itzy bit of background facts'!
Genghis wrote:
Hear, Hear!
JJOE
Ooh, we had a printout of this thread on the table upon review and were amazed how far people tend to blame us without even knowing an itzy bit of background facts. I took my consequences now and retired from teaching. I am too old to deal with this part of the new generation, feeling there are too many illcompromised, and leave teaching to people with a different temper.
You tried to prepare him for a test 'without even knowing an itzy bit of background facts'!
Genghis wrote:
Is this thread a portal into some strange alternate reality, possibly one being authored by an aeronautical David Nobbs?
A school which accepted a pilot as a professional pilot apprentice, gets them to 45 hours without a basic grasp of flying norms, has an instructor so emotionally affected by one bad hour with a student that he refuses to fly for the rest of the day then retires because of it, not to mention a school which takes an anonymous internet thread as part of the decision making process in terminating a student - who didn't contribute to the thread.
Either this is a work of surrealist fiction, or the school needs shutting down quickly before it does any more damage.
A school which accepted a pilot as a professional pilot apprentice, gets them to 45 hours without a basic grasp of flying norms, has an instructor so emotionally affected by one bad hour with a student that he refuses to fly for the rest of the day then retires because of it, not to mention a school which takes an anonymous internet thread as part of the decision making process in terminating a student - who didn't contribute to the thread.
Either this is a work of surrealist fiction, or the school needs shutting down quickly before it does any more damage.
JJOE
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The facts are there are many personality types who fly and many reasons that people take up flying
We even had a poster who took up flying to get over a fear of flying
The best reasons are a love of flying and I am sure even the vast majority of professional pilots wouldn't do it if they didn't deep down love flying
We all get days when we question why we do this but for most the driving force is a passion for what we do PPL or commercial
Then there are the others
Those who fly for some sort of ego trip
Some who fly because their parents did
Some as some sort of escapism
The list goes on some fly for good reasons others not so good and a few are a danger to themselves and others but they are normally noticed and either weed themselves out or are weeded out
But that's life and I too would be surprised that an instructor coming across such a character would chuck it in over the experience
Pace
We even had a poster who took up flying to get over a fear of flying
The best reasons are a love of flying and I am sure even the vast majority of professional pilots wouldn't do it if they didn't deep down love flying
We all get days when we question why we do this but for most the driving force is a passion for what we do PPL or commercial
Then there are the others
Those who fly for some sort of ego trip
Some who fly because their parents did
Some as some sort of escapism
The list goes on some fly for good reasons others not so good and a few are a danger to themselves and others but they are normally noticed and either weed themselves out or are weeded out
But that's life and I too would be surprised that an instructor coming across such a character would chuck it in over the experience
Pace
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and were amazed how far people tend to blame us without even knowing an itzy bit of background facts.
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after internal review with the FIs training the student and the schools owner, there was a serious chat with the student. Result is, the school cancelled his articles of apprenticeship.
I look upon four decades of flying, and see what is now (and what I think is being lost). I have kids who can make my Iphone/Ipad do things I could not imagine possible - but I can make a plane do things the phone/tablet could not imagine! YOU, the pilots to be, must eagerly seek out the old way of doing things, to assure that while you're learning all the tech, do also learn to fly a plane. Your Ipad CANNOT tell you which pedal to push, quickly enough to prevent the taildragger from groundlooping! The old grey haired instructor, who can't figure their Iphone out does have the pedals figured out, and can teach it! Don't loose that opportunity!
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Sadly, I suspect such gentlemen are a dying breed.
My two grey-haired PPL instructors had at least 20,000hrs each and the chap who sent me solo had previously flown a spitfire in combat. That such folk were prepared to teach an ab-initio student, unpaid, was to me an indication of their commitment to aviation and I did all I could to learn as much from the opportunity as I was able.
I have no doubt whatsoever that their combined training saved my life on more than one occasion, but where are the PPL's of tomorrow going to find such instruction?
Those instructors still exist (okay, maybe not the ones who flew Spitfires in combat). They're in the minority, but they exist.
What they rarely are nowadays is full time instructors.
There are out there people who have done a lot of very interesting aviation, and instruct - I can think within my acquaintance of a couple of test pilots, a former airline pilot with 15k+ hours, somebody working outside aviation but who has thousands of hours that include meat bombing and private warbird flying, a couple of people who have competed internationally in aerobatics or in microlight competitions.
They're there - not usually working full time teaching new PPL students, but they're there.
G
What they rarely are nowadays is full time instructors.
There are out there people who have done a lot of very interesting aviation, and instruct - I can think within my acquaintance of a couple of test pilots, a former airline pilot with 15k+ hours, somebody working outside aviation but who has thousands of hours that include meat bombing and private warbird flying, a couple of people who have competed internationally in aerobatics or in microlight competitions.
They're there - not usually working full time teaching new PPL students, but they're there.
G
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They weren't full time in the 1980's, either.
Seek out these guys if you can. It's well worth rearranging your schedule to fly with them.
Seek out these guys if you can. It's well worth rearranging your schedule to fly with them.
I would rearrange anything to!
Unless I've misunderstood the EASA, and other, changes, is it not so that ALL instructors must now be under the wing of an ATO or other such beast and that these fabulous assets to aviation would have to kow-tow to the policies of such 'schools' and are therefore potentially doomed to the sidelines?
They've essentially had their wings clipped so there will fewer available as standalone instructors without going/having gone down the route of registering as an ATO etc. with all the (relative) hassle/cost that has created.
How, then, would you legally be able to use their experience and log it?
Would love to know the prevalence/incidence/consequences of these developments.
Last edited by jjoe; 22nd Dec 2015 at 18:22. Reason: To make sense.
That's not true - only instructing for issue of licences and ratings.
People doing biennials, differences training (tailwheel,retracts, microlight...), currency checks or syndicate checkouts aren't required to work under an ATO.
At the same time, most instructors - even if they are largely freelancers - have a relationship with an ATO or equivalent that they can and often do function within for legal purposes.
So it's really not as bad as you fear.
G
People doing biennials, differences training (tailwheel,retracts, microlight...), currency checks or syndicate checkouts aren't required to work under an ATO.
At the same time, most instructors - even if they are largely freelancers - have a relationship with an ATO or equivalent that they can and often do function within for legal purposes.
So it's really not as bad as you fear.
G
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They've essentially had their wings clipped
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EASA are currently running a consultation to enable single instructors to operate as a "Basic training organisation" which, if implemented, will do much to remove the hassle of an ATO umbrella.
http://www.easa.europa.eu/document-l...osed-amendment
http://www.easa.europa.eu/document-l...osed-amendment
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Is this thread a portal into some strange alternate reality?
I wondered that reading the first post - and surely this would have been more appropriate in Instructors and Examiners, but never mind.
There are a couple of observations I'd like to make: attitude counts for everything; some people simply cannot or will not be taught - meaning that they refuse to accept advice or guidance in any form, regardless of who is teaching, and secondly, that as a professional, does an instructor not have a responsibility borne out of a duty of care and personal integrity to stop any student who is not progressing, for any reason and seek guidance? Regardless of any contractual obligations you may have to an employer (ATO), surely personal integrity must be paramount?
That said, I have encountered exactly the same in professional pilot training at leading schools in recent years; I recall reading a comment in a training record one day that said "This student has no place in the cockpit of an aircraft, and the continuance of 'xyz's' training does both a disservice to the individual and the training provider". The student had logged over 45 hours dual without reaching a safe standard for first solo and had flown with multiple instructors (all of whom reported similarly) at the insistence of the CFI. To have stopped the student's training would have resulted in a refund through the school's 'skills protection plan' and that simply wasn't acceptable, we were told.
Another, a couple of years later, that could not maintain straight and level for more than a few seconds before falling into some form of unconscious like state where the instructor was unable to communicate or focus the students attention thereby necessitating a take over of control and return to the airfield. Clearly there was a problem and AME guidance was sought. The student returned to training after a period of evaluation (despite a suggestion of vacant epilepsy), with a recommendation for a period of dual monitoring before any solo(!).
Both students finished their training...both now fly for Ryanair.
I wondered that reading the first post - and surely this would have been more appropriate in Instructors and Examiners, but never mind.
There are a couple of observations I'd like to make: attitude counts for everything; some people simply cannot or will not be taught - meaning that they refuse to accept advice or guidance in any form, regardless of who is teaching, and secondly, that as a professional, does an instructor not have a responsibility borne out of a duty of care and personal integrity to stop any student who is not progressing, for any reason and seek guidance? Regardless of any contractual obligations you may have to an employer (ATO), surely personal integrity must be paramount?
That said, I have encountered exactly the same in professional pilot training at leading schools in recent years; I recall reading a comment in a training record one day that said "This student has no place in the cockpit of an aircraft, and the continuance of 'xyz's' training does both a disservice to the individual and the training provider". The student had logged over 45 hours dual without reaching a safe standard for first solo and had flown with multiple instructors (all of whom reported similarly) at the insistence of the CFI. To have stopped the student's training would have resulted in a refund through the school's 'skills protection plan' and that simply wasn't acceptable, we were told.
Another, a couple of years later, that could not maintain straight and level for more than a few seconds before falling into some form of unconscious like state where the instructor was unable to communicate or focus the students attention thereby necessitating a take over of control and return to the airfield. Clearly there was a problem and AME guidance was sought. The student returned to training after a period of evaluation (despite a suggestion of vacant epilepsy), with a recommendation for a period of dual monitoring before any solo(!).
Both students finished their training...both now fly for Ryanair.
Last edited by Reverserbucket; 23rd Dec 2015 at 14:00.
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When you read posts like the above you realise how AF447 and Buffalo might have come about...
It's born out by a friend of mine who now runs a commercial pilot school. He told me has students who just should not be anywhere near the sharp end of an aeroplane.
It's born out by a friend of mine who now runs a commercial pilot school. He told me has students who just should not be anywhere near the sharp end of an aeroplane.
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And how come these students eventually pass all tests required to fly as a First Officer for major airlines? Ryanair, Wizzair... and nowadays basically all airlines are in need of "cheap" pilots, who can fund their own training, but what's their battle plan to avert a disaster? Do they trust that the automated airplane will always bring them home? Or that a more senior captain will bring them home in case the flight computers are misbehaving? Or that they eventually learn flying the big jets anyway?
I am asking because airlines, unlike commercial flight schools, don't owe anything to the poorly skilled ATLP applicants, so they could just as well reject them, without any financial consequences.
I must be missing some part of the logic here.
I am asking because airlines, unlike commercial flight schools, don't owe anything to the poorly skilled ATLP applicants, so they could just as well reject them, without any financial consequences.
I must be missing some part of the logic here.
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Ultimately rnzoli, I believe it to be a combination of supply and demand, apparently weak or underperforming trainees 'getting better' or rather improving their skill set with continuous and concentrated repetition, and the fact that there is (as I was told early on by a senior colleague) a certain degree of protection in a multi-crew environment. To give you an impression of one or two of my experiences, I was told by a candidate on a single-engine test when informed during the debrief that they hadn't made the PFL field they selected, or the one beyond it or the one beyond that and had not been successful with the VFR Navigation section of the test: "I'm training to be an airline pilot - you don't do engine failures into fields in airliner's and they've got GPS for navigation." The last comment highlighted a fundamental lack of understanding of basic navigation principals in modern commercial aircraft, perhaps all the more surprising in view of the fourteen ATPL Theoretical Knowledge Examination passes this candidate held. Regardless, a satisfactory standard was eventually reached and this lucky young spark now flies CAT category aircraft in EU airspace - and beyond.
And I could go on, but in my experience, it wasn't always the case. There have always been weak students but I have encountered far more in the last 15 years and most with a sense of entitlement that I find increasingly discouraging. You mentioned two operators in your post; a former colleague told me recently that they have had requests for recent or almost completed students to be proposed for interview with an operator. In general, graduates who had progressed well through training, had an amenable personality and positive attitude, were rejected. Those that had not performed so well, and had not made much of an impression on the staff were accepted. You can make of that what you will I suppose.
And I could go on, but in my experience, it wasn't always the case. There have always been weak students but I have encountered far more in the last 15 years and most with a sense of entitlement that I find increasingly discouraging. You mentioned two operators in your post; a former colleague told me recently that they have had requests for recent or almost completed students to be proposed for interview with an operator. In general, graduates who had progressed well through training, had an amenable personality and positive attitude, were rejected. Those that had not performed so well, and had not made much of an impression on the staff were accepted. You can make of that what you will I suppose.
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Thanks, this makes more sense to me now.
Well, that seems to be true 
often rivers (Hudson), islands (Azores), and some old and closdr runways (Gimli) are more probable landing sites after all-engine failures, not fields. 
Here is what I recently saw as an ATPL aspirant was advising for others: "forget studying for the tests, it's a waste of time, you will never use that knowledge again. Just buy xyz publisher's service for preparatory tests and do the tests over and over again until you reach sufficiently high scores. Don't think, just memorize what is the right answer for each question."
I guess this has to do with the training costs shifted to the candidates and the onset of "I, the candiate pay tons of money for this, so you better deliver your promise and shut up."
Yes, it's clear. A barely performing pilot is easier to keep in the low wage ranges, he/she will be happy just to stay on the job, and will never ask for a raise, and will always be very loyal to his/her employer. At the same time, the low-cost airlines are still as safe as the tradional national flag carriers, and this may be an ample testimony to Fly-by-wire and other fancy automation.
Maybe what we are seeing here is the ripple effect from the onset of automation, where the skills of the proverbial dog, not allowing the pilot to touch anything, will be more important that the pilot skills. If the industry is really heading towards unmanned / single pilot operation combined with remote flight controls, soon we will see programmers, cooks, fashion designers, travel fans and other unusual type of people in "pilot seats" of fully automated airplanes. We will beg for the return of our current candidates, who only have degraded will to learn flying, instead of cadidates, who will be completely inept at learning and still making it through the front windows, because they can push the start/stop/left/right/up/down buttons for the lowest wages, or even paying for that priviledge themselves. At some distant point in time, even priviledged passenger could do that, who pays extra for the front window seat
often rivers (Hudson), islands (Azores), and some old and closdr runways (Gimli) are more probable landing sites after all-engine failures, not fields.
perhaps all the more surprising in view of the fourteen ATPL Theoretical Knowledge Examination passes
There have always been weak students but I have encountered far more in the last 15 years and most with a sense of entitlement that I find increasingly discouraging.
Those that had not performed so well, and had not made much of an impression on the staff were accepted. You can make of that what you will I suppose.
Maybe what we are seeing here is the ripple effect from the onset of automation, where the skills of the proverbial dog, not allowing the pilot to touch anything, will be more important that the pilot skills. If the industry is really heading towards unmanned / single pilot operation combined with remote flight controls, soon we will see programmers, cooks, fashion designers, travel fans and other unusual type of people in "pilot seats" of fully automated airplanes. We will beg for the return of our current candidates, who only have degraded will to learn flying, instead of cadidates, who will be completely inept at learning and still making it through the front windows, because they can push the start/stop/left/right/up/down buttons for the lowest wages, or even paying for that priviledge themselves. At some distant point in time, even priviledged passenger could do that, who pays extra for the front window seat
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Don't think, just memorize what is the right answer for each question."
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