Degradation of will to learn how to fly
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Degradation of will to learn how to fly
Guys, I am exhausted and I have to share my experience from todays training session.
A student with 45 hours into PPL training was handed over to me by a fellow FI. I took him up today to start cross country training and make him exam ready.
This student was unable to fly a traffic pattern without looking at the iPad and following some mystic self-grown waypoints. He even had the configuration for the 172 and an altitude pop up in a window when approaching his custom pattern waypoints.
I always start doing three patterns with a new to me student, but this one I stopped and had the second landing full stop. We taxied back to the office to have some kind but serious talk. It took me quite some discussion to let him leave the iPad on the ground and he insisted that he "wants to be a pilot with his own procedures and the iPad is an essential part of it". I was of the impression he was all ears and understood, so we took off second time without electronic brain extensions.
After this ride I stopped working for the day. He was behaving overconfident even upon taxiing, did not have the basic skills to configure the aircraft correct for pattern flying (trimming was the worst I ever saw), was stubborn upon corrections and the 30 minute cross country ride was a total mess. He did not listen to me, or understood, was unable to read (and hold correctly) a map, snapped into fooling identifications (no, this is not the church, this is a telecommunications tower - in his home town!), had no idea how to read the altitudes of airspaces, had the ability to control altitude to +-500, bank +-10 (discussed in the air that he always uses the autopilot), had no idea how to set the gyro, was trying to approach first VRP 1.000ft above allowed, did fight with the tower controller on clearance and was of a stubborn kind I never had RHD. Hey man, your are 45 hours into piloting.
On the ground he tried to tell me he never had a debriefing before (checked later with the fellow that this was a lie) and told me he would do perfectly fine. No, he does not and upon trying to tell him what the issues to work on are, he closed his ears and did not listen (or understood?) at all.
I now told him I would not continue training with him and made a remark in the students records. Usually I do not look at the records of a student, but I found I was not the first to refuse.
What do you think of such stubborn people trying to become an airplane transporter, instead of a pilot or even airmen?
A student with 45 hours into PPL training was handed over to me by a fellow FI. I took him up today to start cross country training and make him exam ready.
This student was unable to fly a traffic pattern without looking at the iPad and following some mystic self-grown waypoints. He even had the configuration for the 172 and an altitude pop up in a window when approaching his custom pattern waypoints.
I always start doing three patterns with a new to me student, but this one I stopped and had the second landing full stop. We taxied back to the office to have some kind but serious talk. It took me quite some discussion to let him leave the iPad on the ground and he insisted that he "wants to be a pilot with his own procedures and the iPad is an essential part of it". I was of the impression he was all ears and understood, so we took off second time without electronic brain extensions.
After this ride I stopped working for the day. He was behaving overconfident even upon taxiing, did not have the basic skills to configure the aircraft correct for pattern flying (trimming was the worst I ever saw), was stubborn upon corrections and the 30 minute cross country ride was a total mess. He did not listen to me, or understood, was unable to read (and hold correctly) a map, snapped into fooling identifications (no, this is not the church, this is a telecommunications tower - in his home town!), had no idea how to read the altitudes of airspaces, had the ability to control altitude to +-500, bank +-10 (discussed in the air that he always uses the autopilot), had no idea how to set the gyro, was trying to approach first VRP 1.000ft above allowed, did fight with the tower controller on clearance and was of a stubborn kind I never had RHD. Hey man, your are 45 hours into piloting.
On the ground he tried to tell me he never had a debriefing before (checked later with the fellow that this was a lie) and told me he would do perfectly fine. No, he does not and upon trying to tell him what the issues to work on are, he closed his ears and did not listen (or understood?) at all.
I now told him I would not continue training with him and made a remark in the students records. Usually I do not look at the records of a student, but I found I was not the first to refuse.
What do you think of such stubborn people trying to become an airplane transporter, instead of a pilot or even airmen?
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I'd like to say "there are no bad students, only bad teachers" looking at my golf after 40+ years there is no-one on planet earth who is going to make me a half decent golfer, so accept the fact there are some who are just not willing to listen AND learn. Better they stay on the ground while I'm in the air as there are enough up there to make the sky even more hazardous.
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I tried to train a controller once who insisted on using PERT diagrams (remember those?) to do his job. He was so busy with his PERT that he had no time to answer the RT. There are those who will never learn!
accept the fact there are some who are just not willing to listen AND learn.
Standard disclaimer - I'm a CRI not an FI, so only see people who have already passed a skill test with somebody somewhere.
Yes, absolutely, I've seen this several times. A pilot who has some very fixed ideas about their flying - positioning in the circuit, use (or not) of checklists and procedures, and is not prepared to listen.
A key phrase I've learned to be worried by is "I'm not trying to be a professional pilot" when I try to pick them up on poor cockpit practices. It's a phrase which seems to point at a very poor mentality likely to develop very poor flying habits, then defend them to the death.
Is there a solution? Yes, in my opinion, but the student may not accept it. Politely but clearly explain that there are fundamental deficiencies with their flying, which will take some time to address, and creating a learning plan (which may look suspiciously like the PPL syllabus over again).
Either they'll understand and accept the need for the learning plan, and go the journey with you, or they'll refuse to accept it, in which case it's a very short relationship and they'll go off and annoy somebody else. I've had both.
HD - I still use PERT diagrams for project planning. Damned if I can see how you use them in ATC?
G
Yes, absolutely, I've seen this several times. A pilot who has some very fixed ideas about their flying - positioning in the circuit, use (or not) of checklists and procedures, and is not prepared to listen.
A key phrase I've learned to be worried by is "I'm not trying to be a professional pilot" when I try to pick them up on poor cockpit practices. It's a phrase which seems to point at a very poor mentality likely to develop very poor flying habits, then defend them to the death.
Is there a solution? Yes, in my opinion, but the student may not accept it. Politely but clearly explain that there are fundamental deficiencies with their flying, which will take some time to address, and creating a learning plan (which may look suspiciously like the PPL syllabus over again).
Either they'll understand and accept the need for the learning plan, and go the journey with you, or they'll refuse to accept it, in which case it's a very short relationship and they'll go off and annoy somebody else. I've had both.
HD - I still use PERT diagrams for project planning. Damned if I can see how you use them in ATC?
G
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I'm an FI and examiner. Agree with Genghis on this. From what the OP describes this student needs to go back to the beginning.
Not understanding the need or having a feel for trimming is always a warning sign for me - it demonstrates a deep lack of feeling for flight and the way the aircraft works.
As an instructor you have to part company with a student who you know is not cut out for flying. And you have to be very blunt with them about why you are doing so. Don't be nice and try to cover up what you see as the problem (but of course keep it polite and professional). You do not want at some time in the future to realise that you taught someone how to kill themselves.
(I remember PERT diagrams! I recall having a plastic template to help draw the different shaped boxes - before the days of computers).
Not understanding the need or having a feel for trimming is always a warning sign for me - it demonstrates a deep lack of feeling for flight and the way the aircraft works.
As an instructor you have to part company with a student who you know is not cut out for flying. And you have to be very blunt with them about why you are doing so. Don't be nice and try to cover up what you see as the problem (but of course keep it polite and professional). You do not want at some time in the future to realise that you taught someone how to kill themselves.
(I remember PERT diagrams! I recall having a plastic template to help draw the different shaped boxes - before the days of computers).
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It doesn't apply in the case of the OP, (although it might do in Genghis' case) but the situation is always going to be a bit tricky for both parties when the pilot has been flying for many years and has considerably more experience than the instructor who may only be young and relatively recently qualified and inexperienced.
Old lags tend not to take kindly to suggestions from young whippersnappers.
Old lags tend not to take kindly to suggestions from young whippersnappers.
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You need to introduce the student with examiners manual where it says exactly what kind of qualities are sought after in trainee in order to pass the skill test. Explain him that he's not allowed to use iPad or autopilot in the skills test therefore if he ever wishes to pass it, he needs to learn how to fly without these. If he refuses to accept this, send him home. Don't do business with stubborn people, they will only lead you in trouble, if this guy screws up in his solo, you're going to be held responsible. Do you really need it?
I'm slightly cautious of posting too much detail on the topic, as the people may read it, but, with care....
- Somebody who had had a PPL since before I was born, and now rejoiced in about a third of my flying hours. Had got into the habit of flying with a certain proprietary moving map system on his iPad, which degraded his SA to the point where he declared himself lost, 10 miles from home airfield, after the battery went flat. I think he'd probably been okay when he originally got his PPL, but had never built properly upon it, using whatever crutches were available to avoid forcing himself into good flying standards. Also very poor handling, probably because he just had insufficient mental capacity to be on top of the task.
- Somebody who had passed his PPL around 4 years prior to flying with me, done a moderate amount of "easy" flying in known aeroplanes over known turf, then bought a syndicate share at an airfield he didn't know. The combination of new aeroplane, new airfield, new scenery - and habits bought of an undemanding known flying environment, meant that he pretty much had to learn to fly again.
- Somebody who had learned on very easy low performance aeroplanes in a country with minimal use of radio and minimal controlled airspace issues. He then bought a share in a high performance aeroplane at a busy UK airport with intensive use of radio and lots of controlled airspace - none of which he had strategies for dealing with.
Of the three above, one heard me out, put the effort in, and became a good safe pilot in the aeroplane. One tried, but simply wasn't up to it. One just threw his hands in the air, sold his share, and never flew the aeroplane again. Feel free to try and guess which is which!
G
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Student doesn't sound like the easiest but I can't help but wonder how on EARTH they got to 45 hours like that??
I am not criticising the instructors he had because I do not know the situation properly but in my local PPL club, there is no way, absolutely no way they would have gotten to that stage acting like that.
How/why is this student doing cross country flights and traffic patterns whenever they either haven't been taught or haven't grasped straight and level? Why were they allowed to use an iPad round the circuit (I assume they were since they thought it was OK and already had prompts and waypoints)? Always using the autopilot?! A demo of autopilot usage I can't see a problem with, in fact its a good idea but why has a student been allowed to fly around using an autopilot for 45 hours? Own procedures? Sure why not, everyone eventually does it, but it should be AFTER you have learnt/grasped/experienced the basics otherwise how do you know what to base them on?
I am absolutely baffled by how it got so far.
I am not criticising the instructors he had because I do not know the situation properly but in my local PPL club, there is no way, absolutely no way they would have gotten to that stage acting like that.
How/why is this student doing cross country flights and traffic patterns whenever they either haven't been taught or haven't grasped straight and level? Why were they allowed to use an iPad round the circuit (I assume they were since they thought it was OK and already had prompts and waypoints)? Always using the autopilot?! A demo of autopilot usage I can't see a problem with, in fact its a good idea but why has a student been allowed to fly around using an autopilot for 45 hours? Own procedures? Sure why not, everyone eventually does it, but it should be AFTER you have learnt/grasped/experienced the basics otherwise how do you know what to base them on?
I am absolutely baffled by how it got so far.
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You try being a teacher... especially when the parents are paying...
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I'm with OhNoCB here.....even allowing for a post that might have been written in haste at the end of the day, there are things that simply don't compute.
Just like that? Not a word, not a warning comment? Either the previous FI knew there was a problem but said nothing, or he/she didn't realise that there was a problem. Only two possibilities, and both very bad. (See below re Notes; reading them would have been a poor substitute, but better than nothing.)
As for allowing ab initio circuit training with an iPad on the student's lap; it just beggars belief.
Come again? You actually discussed it? Why? He just needed to be told that it's totally inappropriate and that's the end of it.
Well, OK, I can see that it must have been a bad experience. But instructors are supposed to be in charge and able to take control when necessary, and unless he refused to let go of the controls you were not in any danger. Why stop work just because of that, if that's what really happened?
From the context, you are saying this about a student you have just taken over from another FI. I would have thought it should be SOP to study the notes carefully in that situation, for all sorts of good reasons; that's what they are for, isn't it? There's nothing admirable about refusing to look at them.
Well they're usually a PITA, but they are very easy to deal with. They need to be told in words on one syllable, that they either follow their FI's advice and instruction, or they can pack up and leave. The most important issue raised by your post is that ab initio instruction at your school/club seems, from what you say which is probably unfair, to need some urgent management changes, to put it mildly.
45 hours into PPL training was handed over to me by a fellow FI.
As for allowing ab initio circuit training with an iPad on the student's lap; it just beggars belief.
It took me quite some discussion to let him leave the iPad on the ground
After this ride I stopped working for the day
Usually I do not look at the records of a student
What do you think of such stubborn people
Last edited by Capot; 17th Dec 2015 at 18:19.
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@Wiggy
Part it is related to Government/EU handouts.
To get grants you need to demonstrate "accessibility"
So we get the situation were clubs have say it is suitable for everyone or whatever just to get their hands on the wonga.
Then there are the glass half full people who insist that any form of reality based negativity is not allowed.
I know some of them - and typically they have lots of car accidents as they never think it ( eg another car round the corner) might actually happen to them.
Usually once the reality dawns that you/he/she/they cannot actually do whatever it is they refuse to discuss the subject anymore.
To all of this I would add in that private aviation will die unless everyone starts to make it easier for the learner. (though perhaps not ipads in the circuit)
Take the lost at 10 miles away issue mentioned above.
When I flew gliders cross country with not GPS I got lost every single time.
When i used my GPS I did not get lost.
So which would your prefer
1. no GPS and I get lost and end up circling paying no attention to airspeed or anything that might be around else while I try and figure out from the map where I might be, while possibly careering into controlled airspace.
2. Use my GPS whereupon I never ever got lost and no my batteries never ran down and yes I actually looked out more as I was spending less time sodding navigating.
3. I quit private aviation and you have just lost another pilot and contributor to the sport.
Part it is related to Government/EU handouts.
To get grants you need to demonstrate "accessibility"
So we get the situation were clubs have say it is suitable for everyone or whatever just to get their hands on the wonga.
Then there are the glass half full people who insist that any form of reality based negativity is not allowed.
I know some of them - and typically they have lots of car accidents as they never think it ( eg another car round the corner) might actually happen to them.
Usually once the reality dawns that you/he/she/they cannot actually do whatever it is they refuse to discuss the subject anymore.
To all of this I would add in that private aviation will die unless everyone starts to make it easier for the learner. (though perhaps not ipads in the circuit)
Take the lost at 10 miles away issue mentioned above.
When I flew gliders cross country with not GPS I got lost every single time.
When i used my GPS I did not get lost.
So which would your prefer
1. no GPS and I get lost and end up circling paying no attention to airspeed or anything that might be around else while I try and figure out from the map where I might be, while possibly careering into controlled airspace.
2. Use my GPS whereupon I never ever got lost and no my batteries never ran down and yes I actually looked out more as I was spending less time sodding navigating.
3. I quit private aviation and you have just lost another pilot and contributor to the sport.
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dsc810, I hope your post is a wind-up. If not, it's seriously worrying.
if you can't navigate visually in a glider and risk losing control and / or busting airspace you have no right to be up there. GPS should only be a back up. If it's beyond you to be professional in the air, never mind manage basic visual navigation, you should indeed give up as you can't hack it. 'Contributors to the sport' who are likely to contribute the wrong kind of publicity, or even tragic headlines, we can do without.
How do you think VFR flyers coped before GPS? We didn't go around getting lost (well, not often and not for long!), and we didn't bust airspace or lose control of the aeroplane (which was going faster than a glider and had a few more things to keep an eye on). Does your CFI know you can't navigate yet are flying cross country?
I'm an advocate of GPS, but not in place of basic skills!
if you can't navigate visually in a glider and risk losing control and / or busting airspace you have no right to be up there. GPS should only be a back up. If it's beyond you to be professional in the air, never mind manage basic visual navigation, you should indeed give up as you can't hack it. 'Contributors to the sport' who are likely to contribute the wrong kind of publicity, or even tragic headlines, we can do without.
How do you think VFR flyers coped before GPS? We didn't go around getting lost (well, not often and not for long!), and we didn't bust airspace or lose control of the aeroplane (which was going faster than a glider and had a few more things to keep an eye on). Does your CFI know you can't navigate yet are flying cross country?
I'm an advocate of GPS, but not in place of basic skills!
Last edited by Shaggy Sheep Driver; 17th Dec 2015 at 21:23.
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Sorry Shaggy but here's another seriously worrying post for you.
I agree with DSC.
GPS should be primary nav and visual should be last resort after radio nav.
Pilots got lost all the time pre GPS and also did a lot more infringing. There was just a lot less fuss about it in the old days because it "went with the territory". It's far less acceptable these days precisely because of GPS and not in spite of GPS.
I've never flown a glider but if I absolutely had to navigate solely by mark 1 eyeball and stopwatch, then I would rather do it in a powered aircraft with a pre determined and pre planned flight plan and a marked route with waypoints than by simply careering around the sky in an unpowered glider looking for thermals and trying to just stay up in the air whilst wondering where the hell I am as I go around in circles.....
I agree with DSC.
GPS should be primary nav and visual should be last resort after radio nav.
Pilots got lost all the time pre GPS and also did a lot more infringing. There was just a lot less fuss about it in the old days because it "went with the territory". It's far less acceptable these days precisely because of GPS and not in spite of GPS.
I've never flown a glider but if I absolutely had to navigate solely by mark 1 eyeball and stopwatch, then I would rather do it in a powered aircraft with a pre determined and pre planned flight plan and a marked route with waypoints than by simply careering around the sky in an unpowered glider looking for thermals and trying to just stay up in the air whilst wondering where the hell I am as I go around in circles.....