What will recreational flying be like in a few decades?
The E-Fan goes at 100Kts for 1 hour using 30KWH so 200KWH should last 6.7 hours at 100 kts or 3.3 hours at 140Kts. Only just enough for any serious use.
So if our new wonderplane has 200KWH batteries is will need to charge at 1.2MW to be full in 10 minutes from empty.
This charger will be a serious bit of kit probably requiring a big transformer connected to an 11KV line. But since similar devices will be required for charging cars at filling stations maybe they will be available for not too silly money.
I suspect we will have to accept minimum 1 hour charging times, even that will be non trivial to achieve with a 200KWH battery.
Assuming 100% efficiency and 200KWH:
A 13A plug will charge your plane in about 67 hours
A 70KW (100A 3ph) industrial grid connection will take 2.9 Hours
Note that a 70KW connection will charge 8 off 200KWH batteries a day. Not enough for many airfields.
Bottom line is that we will need some thick wires going to airfields and filling stations or a system of trucks taking batteries to/from a facility near a big grid connection.
So if our new wonderplane has 200KWH batteries is will need to charge at 1.2MW to be full in 10 minutes from empty.
This charger will be a serious bit of kit probably requiring a big transformer connected to an 11KV line. But since similar devices will be required for charging cars at filling stations maybe they will be available for not too silly money.
I suspect we will have to accept minimum 1 hour charging times, even that will be non trivial to achieve with a 200KWH battery.
Assuming 100% efficiency and 200KWH:
A 13A plug will charge your plane in about 67 hours
A 70KW (100A 3ph) industrial grid connection will take 2.9 Hours
Note that a 70KW connection will charge 8 off 200KWH batteries a day. Not enough for many airfields.
Bottom line is that we will need some thick wires going to airfields and filling stations or a system of trucks taking batteries to/from a facility near a big grid connection.
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I think a 30 min charge time would be acceptable. Of course with electric drive vertical takeoff is simple and has already bean done, will be quiet, so city centre heliports are in plus small recharge stations can be positioned cheaply around the country. Of course with vertical takeoff/land, ballistic chuts, smaller lower drag wings can be used to give higher cruise speeds, this could be the true start of an intercity point to point air taxy service. I can only see a win win from electric drive and it will come with new battery chemistries.
A 400lb/182kg battery at 3kw/kg would store approx. 550kw at 100kw(134hp)/hr burn would be 5.5 hours to empty with a low drag design 150knots or more cruise should be possible with 825knots range over 900miles to empty. Electric motors are lighter than IC engines for same output with short term higher peek power outputs. This means the power for vertical take off is there.
Putting 500kw into a 500volt battery in 30 minutes would take 2000 amps
and forced air cooling off the battery would be needed this is all within current technology so all that is needed for viable electric aircraft is a battery of 3kw/kg or greater. Lithium air has the potential max of, 10kw/kg but after packaging it should make 3 to 4 kw/kl, this is what the car industry is aiming for and I believe it will happen as per the aircraft designed by August at Yeovil. So watch out for battery development the closer to 3kw/kg the sooner it will happen.
Romeo Tango putting an avgas or god forbid hydrogen at a million dollars a go electric is cheap, but will require a high power supply which means 3 phase of 11klvolts or greater and will still need a buffer on site or a 2000hp gen set which is very big. Battery exchange may turn out the best way to go and be leased rather purchased like a gas bottle and trucked to recharging station.
With vertical takeoff recharge stations could be positioned next to major substations so little infrastructure change needed. It's a think outside of the box a brave new century, which at the end in 2101 and will look nothing like it did in 2001.
A 400lb/182kg battery at 3kw/kg would store approx. 550kw at 100kw(134hp)/hr burn would be 5.5 hours to empty with a low drag design 150knots or more cruise should be possible with 825knots range over 900miles to empty. Electric motors are lighter than IC engines for same output with short term higher peek power outputs. This means the power for vertical take off is there.
Putting 500kw into a 500volt battery in 30 minutes would take 2000 amps
and forced air cooling off the battery would be needed this is all within current technology so all that is needed for viable electric aircraft is a battery of 3kw/kg or greater. Lithium air has the potential max of, 10kw/kg but after packaging it should make 3 to 4 kw/kl, this is what the car industry is aiming for and I believe it will happen as per the aircraft designed by August at Yeovil. So watch out for battery development the closer to 3kw/kg the sooner it will happen.
Romeo Tango putting an avgas or god forbid hydrogen at a million dollars a go electric is cheap, but will require a high power supply which means 3 phase of 11klvolts or greater and will still need a buffer on site or a 2000hp gen set which is very big. Battery exchange may turn out the best way to go and be leased rather purchased like a gas bottle and trucked to recharging station.
With vertical takeoff recharge stations could be positioned next to major substations so little infrastructure change needed. It's a think outside of the box a brave new century, which at the end in 2101 and will look nothing like it did in 2001.
The other thing an airfield could do would be to install a big lead acid battery / chemistry of your choice from which to charge anything that needed charging quickly.
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Well, we are now looking at an electric Porsche. Who'd have thought that? Funny how the wheel turns full circle! - Porsche produced one of the first electric cars! - in 1900!
Porsche unveils all-electric Mission E sports car
The Lohner-Porsche
Porsche unveils all-electric Mission E sports car
The Lohner-Porsche
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When I go touring in my electric plane and decide to fly to the south of France I will want to drop into an airport where like now with Avgas I can fill and be on my way quickly.
Will these battery charge places be everywhere like with Avgas? Fly out of Europe and even Avgas is hard to get hold of Jet A1 being readily available everywhere.
This is the big old problem? Demand and supply.
If there are a stream of aircraft flowing through an airport it might make financial sense to offer such a service.
If its one in a blue moon NO
I hope in 2050 there will be such a volume of these aircraft that demand determines the supply but I doubt it
Once in a blue moon more likely ?
Pace
Will these battery charge places be everywhere like with Avgas? Fly out of Europe and even Avgas is hard to get hold of Jet A1 being readily available everywhere.
This is the big old problem? Demand and supply.
If there are a stream of aircraft flowing through an airport it might make financial sense to offer such a service.
If its one in a blue moon NO
I hope in 2050 there will be such a volume of these aircraft that demand determines the supply but I doubt it
Once in a blue moon more likely ?
Pace
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This is the big old problem? Demand and supply.
The problem with electric cars is that the range / cost is exaggerated. Look at the Vauxhall Ampera which, for the hybrid version, had a claimed 200 plus mpg but, in truth, only achieved 50mpg. Sales were poor and, I understand, it has been withdrawn in Europe. I wouldn't blame anyone who took the view that any claims for electric cars are a pack of lies, especially after the VW problems.......
I would buy an electric car tomorrow as it suits my local driving requirement but, for the same money, I can get a better spec, more luxurious petrol car that I can still use for the odd long-distance trip. And surely that's the issue with electric plane, they don't yet tick ALL the boxes.
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Perhaps one favourable thing, is that for the aircraft whose use is a 50 mile burger run once a week, you could leave your weekend warrior electric plane. plugged into your own solar cell at the tiedown, and it'd be ready to go again the following week!
Self healing [fuel tanks]!
Self healing [fuel tanks]!
There will have to be some sort of infrastructure for electric cars whether it is big connections to the grid or battery swap service .... maybe light aviation will be able to tag onto that.
Also in due course the grown up aircraft will want to run on electricity. The infrastructure for that will be massive ....
If you pitch up at Cannes and want 200KWH of charge in an hour I expect you will pay a premium, if you can leave it on charge overnight you will probably pay much less.
.... on further thought if Cannes are setup for charging electric Learjets they should be able to deal with an electro-spamcan in short order
Also note that the facilities for charging electric Learjets or even electric Boeings will be the same as, or at least compatible with, that required for electro-spamcans so we will no longer be dependent on an unpopular fuel that is often unavailable.
Also in due course the grown up aircraft will want to run on electricity. The infrastructure for that will be massive ....
If you pitch up at Cannes and want 200KWH of charge in an hour I expect you will pay a premium, if you can leave it on charge overnight you will probably pay much less.
.... on further thought if Cannes are setup for charging electric Learjets they should be able to deal with an electro-spamcan in short order
Also note that the facilities for charging electric Learjets or even electric Boeings will be the same as, or at least compatible with, that required for electro-spamcans so we will no longer be dependent on an unpopular fuel that is often unavailable.
Last edited by Romeo Tango; 7th Dec 2015 at 17:27.
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My supermarket had two spaces in the car park for recharging electric cars. I haven't seen them being used which must be an accurate view as the supermarket has now removed the charging points and has two more income producing parking bays.
And surely that's the issue with electric plane, they don't yet tick ALL the boxes.
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FoxMoth
Cant wait for my nuclear powered light aircraft 
Should run a life time
Pace
or there will be an even more advanced development that means they are not even needed!
Should run a life time Pace
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Who knows what it might be - Nuclear, super Solar, Hydrogen - or something yet to be invented - I doubt that the Wright Brothers even dreamt that 50 years after their first flight we would have aircraft carrying hundreds across thousands of miles!
Didn't one of the Wright's testify to Congress in 1908, predicting that an aeroplane would fly across the Atlantic by the end of the century - or even by 1950?
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Bob Upanddown Yes the Ampera has not sold well, but it's more down to GM not knowing what they had and how to market it. In the US GM have just launched the second generation Volt which with discounts and government tax break comes out cheaper than a Prius. The point about the Volt/Ampera is how people use them. These are aimed at around town work and back vehicles with 4.5hour recharge from empty on 240 volts or 9 on 120v with a 50 mile electric range this covers most peoples daily commute, 80% actually, if you want to go further, it automatically runs the IC engine when the charge is depleted.
So far GM have sold 100,000 Volts over 5 years and the new model is selling in only 10 states so far, but sales are up at nearly 2000 a month already. It is gaining momentum by word of mouth not by GM marketing. GM have discovered that the electric drive train, with a smaller battery is more cost effective than a 6 speed auto transmission and are starting to use it in Prius type hybrids as well. So electric is coming, but it will creep into the market as quietly as they drive.
So far GM have sold 100,000 Volts over 5 years and the new model is selling in only 10 states so far, but sales are up at nearly 2000 a month already. It is gaining momentum by word of mouth not by GM marketing. GM have discovered that the electric drive train, with a smaller battery is more cost effective than a 6 speed auto transmission and are starting to use it in Prius type hybrids as well. So electric is coming, but it will creep into the market as quietly as they drive.
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Well, it seems that electric is the future of GA, with nuclear a very distant second
.
For our electric plane, we'll have to open our minds a little, the old way of doing things won't cut it....
At what power setting would we perform the compass swing? Cruise power, I suppose, 'cause that's where you'd want the compass to be most accurate. There must be some stray magnetism around that motor somewhere...
The flight manual, what will the performance charts say about range and endurance? What about on the cold day, when you're running full seat heaters, and defrost, and extra watts are being used? ("cause it's not going to have exhaust muff heat!)
What about the regs? Will you still have to flight plan with a 30 minute VFR fuel reserve? And how do you dip the tanks to check the watts before your flight?
If you crash, and tear the wings off, will you get electrocuted?
If GA airports struggle to amortize the fuel tanks and pumps, will the cost of the wires and solar cells become a deal breaker?
Honestly, a client has approached me with a C-150 STC mod to electric to think about - so I'm thinking!
. For our electric plane, we'll have to open our minds a little, the old way of doing things won't cut it....
At what power setting would we perform the compass swing? Cruise power, I suppose, 'cause that's where you'd want the compass to be most accurate. There must be some stray magnetism around that motor somewhere...
The flight manual, what will the performance charts say about range and endurance? What about on the cold day, when you're running full seat heaters, and defrost, and extra watts are being used? ("cause it's not going to have exhaust muff heat!)
What about the regs? Will you still have to flight plan with a 30 minute VFR fuel reserve? And how do you dip the tanks to check the watts before your flight?
If you crash, and tear the wings off, will you get electrocuted?
If GA airports struggle to amortize the fuel tanks and pumps, will the cost of the wires and solar cells become a deal breaker?
Honestly, a client has approached me with a C-150 STC mod to electric to think about - so I'm thinking!
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You could always nip into a storm cell enroute now and again for refuelling a lightning strike here and there would do wonders for charging the batteries
NAAH i am waiting for my nuclear powered machine
forget all that old hat thing like endurance fuel reserves and alternatives
The only endurance being your bladder not battery
Pace
NAAH i am waiting for my nuclear powered machine
forget all that old hat thing like endurance fuel reserves and alternatives The only endurance being your bladder not battery
Pace
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AAH i am waiting for my nuclear powered machine forget all that old hat thing like endurance fuel reserves and alternatives
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A long time ago, 60s "Tomorrow's World" demonstrated a model a/c wing levelling device. This system read the static electricity potential at each wingtip (3 feet wingspan) and compared them etc blah blah. The point being that there is static electricity within the atmosphere. I'm no expert but can static be used to power anything?
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Crash one
Years ago I was flying a PA34 Seneca five to Shannon via Walasey DUB over Dublin there was a huge storm which had closed the airport and fuelling down.
Taking a gap all went black followed by an almighty flash of lightning which hit my left wing some 3 feet away
THe radios temporarily went in a mass of crackle!
On turning around to check the PAX all their hair was standing vertically upright and I am sure their teeth glowed whiter than normal so I suppose the answe had to be yes static electricity can power hair to stand up right
The above is all true bar maybe white teeth and I was vectored onto the glide
We were chased by mini lightning bolts to the ground and I was convinced the aircraft was setting them off
Landing in Dublin there was a line of maybe 30 aircraft in the hold on the taxiway and all fuel services shut down
Pace
Years ago I was flying a PA34 Seneca five to Shannon via Walasey DUB over Dublin there was a huge storm which had closed the airport and fuelling down.
Taking a gap all went black followed by an almighty flash of lightning which hit my left wing some 3 feet away
THe radios temporarily went in a mass of crackle!
On turning around to check the PAX all their hair was standing vertically upright and I am sure their teeth glowed whiter than normal so I suppose the answe had to be yes static electricity can power hair to stand up right
The above is all true bar maybe white teeth and I was vectored onto the glide
We were chased by mini lightning bolts to the ground and I was convinced the aircraft was setting them off
Landing in Dublin there was a line of maybe 30 aircraft in the hold on the taxiway and all fuel services shut down
Pace
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There's a racing motorcycle that's electric that has lapped the IOM TT course at 120mph (the record is about 130, I think). Trouble is, it can only do one lap then needs recharging. Also, one wonders how long the batteries would keep supplying that sort of performance before they'd need to be replaced (at great cost, one imagines).