How bad was this landing?
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How bad was this landing?
I did a bad landing on Sunday, where the nosewheel touched down earlier than planned. I am not proud of it, but I can't really gauge how big my error was. So try to score it on a scale of 1 to 5, where
1 = "It was okay, no worries, just try to avoid it in the future."
.
.
.
5 = "Good Heavens, it was horrible you fool, you are damned lucky to have your nosewheel and prop and engine intact after this."
Background info from the video description:
"This was my first landing at LHKV, and it takes special coordination and holding before entering its airspace due to the parachute activities over the weekends. I already felt that the aircraft settled onto the runway earlier than I expected during the flare (maybe due to the variable winds or misjudging the height above the narrow landing strip). The recording showed that the nose gear touched down slightly earlier than the main landing gears, which is a certain pilot error."
1 = "It was okay, no worries, just try to avoid it in the future."
.
.
.
5 = "Good Heavens, it was horrible you fool, you are damned lucky to have your nosewheel and prop and engine intact after this."
Background info from the video description:
"This was my first landing at LHKV, and it takes special coordination and holding before entering its airspace due to the parachute activities over the weekends. I already felt that the aircraft settled onto the runway earlier than I expected during the flare (maybe due to the variable winds or misjudging the height above the narrow landing strip). The recording showed that the nose gear touched down slightly earlier than the main landing gears, which is a certain pilot error."
Last edited by rnzoli; 3rd Aug 2015 at 21:24. Reason: spelling
It looked less of a wheelbarrow and more of a flat landing with pretty much all wheels touching together. I'd go 3.5/5. Good thing is you recognised it was not right
I fly the Katana and its a pretty slippery plane and easy to add 5kts or so of unnecessary airspeed
It also looks like you just forgot to flare....or perhaps it just happened to quickly, which goes back to my thought, you were just a bit too fast
Make sure that stall warner is squeaking as you flare
Would have been a 1/5 if it was a B-52!
I fly the Katana and its a pretty slippery plane and easy to add 5kts or so of unnecessary airspeed
It also looks like you just forgot to flare....or perhaps it just happened to quickly, which goes back to my thought, you were just a bit too fast
Make sure that stall warner is squeaking as you flare
Would have been a 1/5 if it was a B-52!
less than 1......if you have a look at the prop at its lowest it is no where near the runway. Yes the landing is a bit flat but not dangerous. Careful with a crosswind though as you are landing a little quick maybe which makes it harder to get a proper flare without drifting a long way, if you are kicking the drift off you might end up being pushed sideways a bit.
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Another thing to remember and something you have alluded to is runway width, thinner runway, to what your used to, will make it look like you are higher than you are so you flare late, a wider one makes you think you are lower so you flare early.
With the landing it was flat and that's that.
With the landing it was flat and that's that.
I see a lot of three pointers carried out by nose-wheel aircraft. Maybe more cameras should be used, to make them aware that they're doing it?
I have an advantage. I have a tailwheel a/c, but frequently fly nose-wheel a/c. The landing attitude is pretty much the same. Or should be.
I don't think you should be shot for that one. A good flogging would be sufficient.
I have an advantage. I have a tailwheel a/c, but frequently fly nose-wheel a/c. The landing attitude is pretty much the same. Or should be.
I don't think you should be shot for that one. A good flogging would be sufficient.
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Thank you!
Thanks for the feedback guys, much appreciated.
My first thought was at wheels contacting the ground "WTF!? How come we touched down already!?" I didn't want to balloon and expected to have more "leg room" to float before starting to pull the stick back for the flare.
So I think I misjudged the height because the runway was narrower than what I am used to. I am not sure, but I might have also split my attention too much, as there were parachuters crossing the runway shortly before me, and one was still on the wrong side, walking towards the runway. He or she stopped just in time, but I had to keep him in the corner of my eye, to ensure that he/she doesn't walk onto the runway while I land. (He or she is captured at 2:07).
Also found this additional information about the risks associated with flat landings.
Flat landing = Bad landing?
(The answer is yes, it's worth at least a bit of imaginary flogging
)
My first thought was at wheels contacting the ground "WTF!? How come we touched down already!?" I didn't want to balloon and expected to have more "leg room" to float before starting to pull the stick back for the flare.
So I think I misjudged the height because the runway was narrower than what I am used to. I am not sure, but I might have also split my attention too much, as there were parachuters crossing the runway shortly before me, and one was still on the wrong side, walking towards the runway. He or she stopped just in time, but I had to keep him in the corner of my eye, to ensure that he/she doesn't walk onto the runway while I land. (He or she is captured at 2:07).
Also found this additional information about the risks associated with flat landings.
Flat landing = Bad landing?
(The answer is yes, it's worth at least a bit of imaginary flogging
)
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I didn't see any significant flare, and no hold-off. The result was a flat landing - all 3 wheels pretty much touching down together (not 'a bit 'flat', totally flat). That's not uncommon but as you yourself have deduced, it ain't the way to do it. It's poor technique and it overstresses the nose leg which isn't designed to take it (see the countless nosewheel collapses in the AAIB reports).
You need to flare, then hold off just above the runway (try to prevent it touching down by gently easing the stick back as the speed bleeds off with the wheels just above the surface - but don't climb either!). When the aerolpane is ready, it will land despite your best efforts to continue to hold it off.
If you get the chance to fly a tailwheel aircraft that will instill such skills, as the sort of landing you demonstrate would not be tolerated by a taildragger (landing too flat, unless doing a deliberate 'wheeler', would result in a nose-high bounce).
So practice those hold offs and flares!
You need to flare, then hold off just above the runway (try to prevent it touching down by gently easing the stick back as the speed bleeds off with the wheels just above the surface - but don't climb either!). When the aerolpane is ready, it will land despite your best efforts to continue to hold it off.
If you get the chance to fly a tailwheel aircraft that will instill such skills, as the sort of landing you demonstrate would not be tolerated by a taildragger (landing too flat, unless doing a deliberate 'wheeler', would result in a nose-high bounce).
So practice those hold offs and flares!
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If you are asking for a score from 0 to 5 then I give it 5 just because you are asking.
I would rather the question was about the fact that you want to know how to rectify flat or nose wheel landings.
All the professional pilots I know do not do bad landings! OK some might be firmer than others but not bad.
The last BAD landing I did was over 20 years ago and I am pretty norm amongst experienced pilots so that should be your goal regardless of weather winds etc.
SSD above gave some good observations so work on controlling the aircraft when near the ground rather than being a passenger to your landings on a wing and a prayer sort of arrivals
its not about giving a score on how bad it was.
I was right seat to a twin pilot 15 years back in a Seneca which are renowned for the Seneca porpoise if flat or nose wheel landed.
this pilot landed just nose first and the aircraft started bucking down the runway with the bucks intensifying. There is only one way out of that and he failed to do anything about it sitting frozen at the controls.
this results in a broken nose wheel and the aircraft ending up on the props.
i had to take control add power lift the nose till the bucking stopped and we went around.
Fly the aircraft do not become a passenger to it
I know some people here will say that the pilot is low time what do you expect but I would rather be harsh than in a few weeks have you sitting in front of the CFI explaining why the engine is being shock load tested a new prop on the way and the nose has to be repaired
Pace
I would rather the question was about the fact that you want to know how to rectify flat or nose wheel landings.
All the professional pilots I know do not do bad landings! OK some might be firmer than others but not bad.
The last BAD landing I did was over 20 years ago and I am pretty norm amongst experienced pilots so that should be your goal regardless of weather winds etc.
SSD above gave some good observations so work on controlling the aircraft when near the ground rather than being a passenger to your landings on a wing and a prayer sort of arrivals
its not about giving a score on how bad it was.
I was right seat to a twin pilot 15 years back in a Seneca which are renowned for the Seneca porpoise if flat or nose wheel landed.
this pilot landed just nose first and the aircraft started bucking down the runway with the bucks intensifying. There is only one way out of that and he failed to do anything about it sitting frozen at the controls.
this results in a broken nose wheel and the aircraft ending up on the props.
i had to take control add power lift the nose till the bucking stopped and we went around.
Fly the aircraft do not become a passenger to it
I know some people here will say that the pilot is low time what do you expect but I would rather be harsh than in a few weeks have you sitting in front of the CFI explaining why the engine is being shock load tested a new prop on the way and the nose has to be repaired
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 4th Aug 2015 at 12:56.
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About two years ago a Seneca did exactly the same at our airport. Nose wheel damaged, two props damaged, fuselage twisted, etc. Aircraft sat there and was finally dismantled for parts. Nose wheels are for taxiing, main gear is for landing.
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less than 1......
Probably more strain on it, taxiing on grass.
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Points taken!
OK, I got the point from both angles.
I won't lose sleep and won't request a maintenance review from the a/c operator, but I will definitely focus on avoiding this "gotcha" in the future.
I don't need theoretical training on landing, I know how to do it and most of my landings are nose-high as they should be.
This specific one was feeling odd, it was confirmed from the recording, and I wondered if this was a big deal or not. I definitely wasn't a passenger, because someone had to align to the centerline and round it out above the runway too, and that was me. However I missed the right time for starting the flare, and after touchdown, I didn't want to do any late control changes to avoid making even bigger problems (e.g., PIO).
Now while this incident was more like a non-event alone, it is rather dangerous to overlook it and allow it to develop into a bad habit on the long run. Add more variables into the landing, gust, crosswind, short or poor quality grass runway, and there I have the recipe for more serious troubles in the future.
So I promise everyone, that I will improve upon this, with more discipline and practice.
In hindsight, if the parachuters walk across the runway was so distracting for me, I should have just called it a go-around and try again. A low pass at unfamiliar and especially uncontrolled airfields looks to me a much more inviting idea now.
I won't lose sleep and won't request a maintenance review from the a/c operator, but I will definitely focus on avoiding this "gotcha" in the future.
I don't need theoretical training on landing, I know how to do it and most of my landings are nose-high as they should be.
This specific one was feeling odd, it was confirmed from the recording, and I wondered if this was a big deal or not. I definitely wasn't a passenger, because someone had to align to the centerline and round it out above the runway too, and that was me. However I missed the right time for starting the flare, and after touchdown, I didn't want to do any late control changes to avoid making even bigger problems (e.g., PIO).
Now while this incident was more like a non-event alone, it is rather dangerous to overlook it and allow it to develop into a bad habit on the long run. Add more variables into the landing, gust, crosswind, short or poor quality grass runway, and there I have the recipe for more serious troubles in the future.
So I promise everyone, that I will improve upon this, with more discipline and practice.
In hindsight, if the parachuters walk across the runway was so distracting for me, I should have just called it a go-around and try again. A low pass at unfamiliar and especially uncontrolled airfields looks to me a much more inviting idea now.
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The landing was not seriously bad it just plonked onto three wheels together! Add a greater descent rate and things would have looked more spectacular.
But this is the point its what I call a wing and a prayer arrival rather than a pilot in control arrival and with a certain element of luck.
Work on putting more into the control element of your flying and then all of a sudden you will realise that you are controlling the aircraft not the other way around
pace
But this is the point its what I call a wing and a prayer arrival rather than a pilot in control arrival and with a certain element of luck.
Work on putting more into the control element of your flying and then all of a sudden you will realise that you are controlling the aircraft not the other way around
pace
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Another thing to remember and something you have alluded to is runway width, thinner runway, to what your used to, will make it look like you are higher than you are so you flare late, a wider one makes you think you are lower so you flare early.
With the landing it was flat and that's that.
With the landing it was flat and that's that.
You were probably looking in the wrong place !
Cast your eyes at the far end of the runway and it may never happen again .
Cast your eyes at the far end of the runway and it may never happen again .
It started about thirty years ago in the flight training industry and was embraced as practical and safe by the industry and since then has become the norm.
No wonder pilots have problems judging flare height.
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So if you are landing on a lake on floats or on a large flat area of snow on skis how do you judge height for the flare?
(1) look at the shoreline out of the corner of your eye
(2) look down and judge from the waves
(3) sometimes (glassy water, shore a long way off) there's nothing much to go by, so no flare, just descend in the landing attitude.
I got laughed at somewhat by one instructor for doing (2) and then a landplane flare, when I think he wanted me to do (3) (because (2) only works sometimes).
But I didn't have you teaching me, or I'd no doubt know the right answer :-)
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But I didn't have you teaching me, or I'd no doubt know the right answer :-)
But here is my suggestions to make things easier.
There are really only two types of water surface.
(1) A water surface with a viable surface caused by wind...or in some cases debris or plant material visible.
In which case you should be looking at the surface at the point at which you plan to flare ( Round out. )
Not only does this give you the best visual clues to judge closing rate and height to start the flare it also is where you should be looking for floating debris such as dead heads and such.
It makes no sense to look way into the far distance and then get lucky with the correct flare height only to touch down on a dead head and possible die in the resulting crash.
Once you have flared to the level attitude you look forward about three to five hunderd feet...this will give you the correct height judgement and also allow you to see any debris in the water.
There you go...
I seldom go into detail with these issues because flight instruction should be done in an airplane....the internet is a poor communication tool.
(2) Glassy water..
You use the glassy water approach attitude controlling rate of descent with power....and look ahead between three to five hundred feet to check for debris in the water.
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You
so what do you do on a black black night with a night landing ? or in very poor visibility when the RVR is on minima ?
I can remember a sim session when we got to the fun bit the challenge at the end of the session.
The instructor put the weather at minima failed an engine and then failed the autopilot/flight director! Trundling down the approach flying raw data He then announced that the airport had gone down in 200 meters in fog! Ok fly the missed approach and divert until he added the deal breaker of 300 ibs of fuel per side in the Citation Jet.
The only option was to fly the needles to the ground using height call outs for a flare point. 10 feet and put the aircraft into a landing attitude, thrust levers closed and wait for the aircraft to touch. Thankfully it did so you can land in thick fog too if you have to. Outside references then become non existent! still didn't land flat or on the nose so get the handling right Remember you can only really land an aircraft when there is no excuse to ever do a bad landing no matter what the conditions
Pace
were probably looking in the wrong place !
Cast your eyes at the far end of the runway and it may never happen again .
Cast your eyes at the far end of the runway and it may never happen again .
I can remember a sim session when we got to the fun bit the challenge at the end of the session.
The instructor put the weather at minima failed an engine and then failed the autopilot/flight director! Trundling down the approach flying raw data He then announced that the airport had gone down in 200 meters in fog! Ok fly the missed approach and divert until he added the deal breaker of 300 ibs of fuel per side in the Citation Jet.
The only option was to fly the needles to the ground using height call outs for a flare point. 10 feet and put the aircraft into a landing attitude, thrust levers closed and wait for the aircraft to touch. Thankfully it did so you can land in thick fog too if you have to. Outside references then become non existent! still didn't land flat or on the nose so get the handling right
Remember you can only really land an aircraft when there is no excuse to ever do a bad landing no matter what the conditions Pace
Last edited by Pace; 4th Aug 2015 at 22:39. Reason: fly the