Circuit joining

[Mach Jump]

Isn't there a setting in the UK with something like 8nm long final, 4nm final, less 4nm short final?

In the UK the only rule we have is that, for position reporting, 'Final' can be anywhere between 0 and 4 nm, and 'Long Final' anywhere between 4 and 8nm.

There is no official definition for 'Short Final' but it is commonly used to indicate that the call is being made much later than it would have been normally, in the same sense as 'Late Downwind'.

If someone called 'Short Final', I would expect them to be almost oner the threshold.


MJ

[Scoobster]

On the notion of "orbiting" this once happened in my early stages of the PPL landway under dual instruction.

Southend ATC instructed an orbit on the downwind leg.

So my instructor took the controls and did the orbit.

Watching some You Tube videos for a LGW Transit - there is an instruction similar to "Proceed to North Terminal Build and hold North of Runway xx".

The P1 then obliges.

Question - Would the "hold" be an orbit - and would the "orbit" be a 15 degree Angle of Bank rate 1 turn with the turn co-ordinator on the first notch?

Or are would a quick calculation have to be worked out to establish according to TAS what AoB is required subject to the speed you are flying?

Same question applies if instructed to orbit on downwind...

Scoobster

[BackPacker]

I don't think there is a set time for an orbit. You've got to consider the actual situation and the reason for the orbit. If it's to provide spacing for a departure of an aircraft, or to slot you in behind GA traffic, ATC may only need you to orbit for a minute or so. So something faster than a rate-one turn would be appropriate (say 30 degrees AoB at 100 knots). But if you need to orbit because there's an A380 landing, ATC may need to hold you for three minutes or even more. In that case a rate one (17 degrees AoB at 100 knots) would be more appropriate.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I've received an ATC instruction to orbit on final before now.

Like many here I would refuse such an instruction. They can't tell you not to go around FFS!

[Scoobster]

In that case a rate one (17 degrees AoB at 100 knots) would be more appropriate

How would one expect to work this out?

At PPL I was told a Rate 1 turn is 30 degree AoB at 90-100 kts

So in this situation.. if instructed to orbit for 3 minutes.. I would (if i knew no better) -(will look this up in ATPL stuff also/calculations etc) -I would just orbit at 30 AoB for 3 minutes.

This would probably take me around quicker than the 3 minute mark.

Just a reminder I guess that you need greater awareness of the situation you are in.

S.

[dobbin1]

I would not let a student solo unless they knew what to do if asked to orbit, or go around, or "continue approach", or divert to an alternative aerodrome.

If asked by ATC to orbit on final, I would expect them to decline and go around instead. I would probably be beating the controller around the head at the same time.

[Helicopterdriverguy]

Don't bother overthinking orbits. Just choose a point on the ground and keep a constant turn around said object. Holds, however, are a different kettle of fish.

[Mach Jump]

Don't bother overthinking orbits. Just choose a point on the ground and keep a constant turn around said object.

Just what I was thinking. When asked to orbit downwimnd by ATC, just circle over a landmark, at whatever angle of bank you would feel comfortable making any of the level turns in the circuit.

Same applies when asked to hold in a certain position whilst en route.

IFR holds are a different thing altogether.

The angle of bank to maintain a rate one turn increases with speed, and can be found by TAS/8 + 3, or TAS/10+7. depending on who taught you. (Around 15 degrees in most light aircraft.)

You are not expected to calculate this whilst in flight for your actual speed though. Just have a rough Idea what it is, then adjust it slightly to achieve rate one on the Turn Indicator/Turn Coordinator.


MJ

[fireflybob]

As a footnote orbiting should not be conducted in the circuit at an aerodrome without an ATSU as, apart from being potentially hazardous with respect to traffic following in the circuit, to do so is not "conforming with the pattern of traffic".

As regards how to fly an orbit what's wrong with a medium level turn with circa 30 degrees of bank?

(Jez I never knew this flying was so complicated)

[Mach Jump]

As a footnote orbiting should not be conducted in the circuit at an aerodrome without an ATSU as, apart from being potentially hazardous with respect to traffic following in the circuit, to do so is not "conforming with the pattern of traffic

My thiughts exactly, Bob.

(Jez I never knew this flying was so complicated)

PPRune is a great place to find out what you have been missing!


MJ

[fireflybob]

At PPL I was told a Rate 1 turn is 30 degree AoB at 90-100 kts

Scoobster, you were told wrong!

The basic rule of thumb for angle of bank for a Rate 1 turn is to take the airspeed, knock of the last digit, and add 7.

Eg IAS 100 kts, delete the right hand zero and add seven equal 17 degrees of bank.

[skyhighfallguy]

You guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill. All this talk of orbits at a little tiny airport in a little tiny airplane are more work than making an orbit of the earth in a spacecraft.

When we teach people to fly here, we include such things as turns about a point (u guys might call it an orbit), S turns along a road (which can be used in a traffic pattern to space traffic out) and other maneuvers.

I wouldn't solo someone who couldn't do a 360 on downwind, or S turns on final. I also make darn sure they would know what to do if the airport runway was blocked immediately after the student's takeoff.


I've done S turns or 360's in pipers to jets and you know what? They are all the same. Safe airspeed, bank angle at a conservative degree and keep your head moving and your mind moving.

Two planes, little airport, radios working and all this fuss.

[ChickenHouse]

Wow, quite some confusion here around, but this orbiting thing starts to fear me. When at a controlled airport, tower may ask to do a 360, yes, but usually before entering traffic pattern at beloved holding pattern location, or if something goes wrong and they don't see an issue on downwind, BUT neither ever orbit on base, nor final, nor at an uncontrolled airfield - Jesus, that is simply one thing, dangerous! I never heard of a control tower suggesting orbit in final, you are LOW and the options are landing or go around.

I kind of remember that "orbit" usually involves a 2 minute standard 360, as we all learned in training and frequently train, don't we?

[skyhighfallguy]

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

ON a 3 mile final, a plane may be almost 1000'

How is making a turn about a point or just a 360 dangerous?

now, if someone told you to do a circle at 200', maybe not, but come on

[fireflybob]

When we teach people to fly here, we include such things as turns about a point (u guys might call it an orbit), S turns along a road (which can be used in a traffic pattern to space traffic out) and other maneuvers.

I wouldn't solo someone who couldn't do a 360 on downwind, or S turns on final. I also make darn sure they would know what to do if the airport runway was blocked immediately after the student's takeoff.

skyhighfallguy, all good stuff I am sure but those items are not in the syllabus for the licences in the UK. Operation at "minimum level" is in the syllabus which would include turns/orbits at that height.

When in Rome do as the Romans.

I kind of remember that "orbit" usually involves a 2 minute standard 360, as we all learned in training and frequently train, don't we?

ChickenHouse, maybe in your part of the world but not here in the UK (or indeed Europe as far as I am aware).

[skyhighfallguy]

thanks for pointing out that the UK doesn't teach that stuff. Good to know.

glad to also know you have heard of such things. I remember our sylabus at the 141 school demanded s turns, turns about a point and rectangular patterns all under the banner of "GROUND REFERENCE MANEUVERS".

carry on then, just be careful, sounds like your tool box is a little light over there.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

GROUND REFERENCE MANEUVERS

What problem do they solve? - genuinely curious.

[ChickenHouse]

ChickenHouse, maybe in your part of the world but not here in the UK (or indeed Europe as far as I am aware).

I do refer to my PPL training, which was indeed in Germany. I am pretty sure the tower where I learned would have shot me right away while still in the air when I would try to attempt 360 on final ... have to confirm next time I see these guys.

[India Four Two]

What problem do they solve? - genuinely curious.

Me too. As far as I am aware, Ground Reference Maneuvers are a requirement unique to the US.

[fireflybob]

carry on then, just be careful, sounds like your tool box is a little light over there.

skyhighfallguy, I can assure you it isn't!

I am pretty sure the tower where I learned would have shot me right away while still in the air when I would try to attempt 360 on final ... have to confirm next time I see these guys.

ChickenHouse, that is another issue about which I would agree. Your post implied that there was only one way of conducting an "orbit"

usually involves a 2 minute standard 360, as we all learned in training and frequently train, don't we?

which is not the case - it all depends why and in what situation you are "orbiting".