Circuit joining

[PA28181]

I'm just wondering about following or conforming to the traffic pattern if lead aircraft at 'base' airfield is out of the ATZ.

If you leave the ATZ depending on track, at Fairoaks, White Waltham, & Denham, you may get a phone call from EGLL

[150 Driver]

Isn't it interesting though that for something we all do, all the time, every time we fly, there are so many opinions from so many with so much experience, some of which is contradictory !

Guess it goes to show that rules are all well and good but what matters is commonsense, good radio use, airmanship and courtesy. And if everyone makes it on the ground safely then that's a job well done.

[skyhighfallguy]

150 driver, flying is not commonsense.

We have rules that have been around longer than you and I have been around

Why not follow them? I realize you have to actually read them, understand them and maybe even ask others to help you understand them. And be sure you ask someone who actually knows something like an FAA inspector here in the USA or whatever you call them in your country.

Commonsense? Hardly. It is well thought out rules that keep things safe, the only problem seems to be when they are not obeyed or understood.

When I was instructing, I would teach people on how to judge distance (without the use of DME, VOR, or GPS etc). Just having someone say: turn base over the power lines might work for one airfield, but what do you do if you don't have power lines at the next aerodrome?

[Level Attitude]

Commonsense? Hardly. It is well thought out rules that keep things safe, the only problem seems to be when they are not obeyed or understood.

Very true. Although courtesy (not to mention self preservation) means aircraft joining a circuit pattern tend to give way to those already in it I can, which surprised me, find no Rule that actually states that Circuit Traffic has any specific right of way.


All Quotes from CAP393

Avoiding aerial collisions
8 (5) Subject to sub-paragraph (7), an aircraft which has the right-of-way under this rule shall maintain its course and speed.

Since a pilot certainly wants to do this when concentrating on landing it is no surprise that:

Order of landing
13 (1) An aircraft landing or on its final approach to land shall have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or on the ground or water.
(2) An aircraft shall not overtake or cut in front of another aircraft on its final approach to land.

Flight in the vicinity of an aerodrome
12 (1) …a flying machine flying in the vicinity of … an aerodrome shall:
(a) conform to the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft intending to land at that Aerodrome ….

A single pattern allows for an orderly single flow of Aircraft on to a final approach (0 to 4 nm from Threshold so ATZ, or not, is irrelevent) ie no multiple Base Legs, a variety of distances out from the threshold, which could be interesting, if not chaotic. However, due to 13, all aircraft are still required to give way to aircraft already on Final - no matter how they got there.

Converging
9 (3) Subject to paragraphs (1) and (2), when two aircraft are converging in the air at approximately the same altitude, the aircraft which has the other on its right shall give way.

The above means that an aircraft joining a L/H Circuit Crosswind would be required to give way to existing Downwind Traffic.
But what about an aircraft that has Gone Around and is now flying along the runway at circuit height? The Rules state they are the ones who must now give way to an aircraft joining from the Deadside.
What about a R/H Circuit?

Pilots flying a Straight In approach to an airfield with a busy circuit pattern may not be popular but that does not mean they do not have right of way.

[Level Attitude]

At "home" I like to join overhead just for fun, and see how accurately and quickly I can crank it around, lose 1000' before crossing the numbers. Our circuit is quite tight due to noise abatement so I think final is typically 0.2 - 0.4 nm

Challenging and fun certainly but, even though you only do this at your "home" airfield, may I suggest this (a steep gliding turn on the Dead Side, close to the runway) is not good airmanship.

[150 Driver]

I wasn't suggesting that you chuck the rules away and just use commonsense.

FWIW I have read the read the rules and like to think I follow them. But when you're in a situation where someone else isn't following the rules as you understand them (bearing in mind that there are what appear to be experienced aviators on here who are expressing differing opinions !) then commonsense/self preservation/good airmanship (call it what you will) must play a part in getting you down safely.

[ChickenHouse]

Pihutze, what a discussion and they are all there - the rule-rules-all, the cowboys, the few common-sensers and even some pilots ;-). Folks, I read all the discussion and summarize for me: it all depends.

One question to the UK flyers. Do you have published VFR traffic patterns and what is their legal status? I remember the very annoying discussion in Germany, you know that country with the hard-headed citizens, on traffic patterns and in the end the lawyers had to clear that traffic patterns are just guidelines, nothing else (there even is a published expert opinion, can't find it now).

I would treat a "log final" call at an uncontrolled airfield the same as "ILS established" on a controlled airport, where this is just an information and if time permits the controller will clear to land you well before the established machine is in final. Once the "long final" guy enters final, it has to fiddle emself into the traffic at the pattern, that easy?

[Mach Jump]

Order of landing
13 (1) An aircraft landing or on its final approach to land shall have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or on the ground or water.
(2) An aircraft shall not overtake or cut in front of another aircraft on its final approach to land.

Pilots flying a Straight In approach to an airfield with a busy circuit pattern may not be popular but that does not mean they do not have right of way.

Depends where you think the 'final approach to land' starts. If someone calls 'Final at 15 miles' does that mean that you can't turn 'base' in front of them?

My view is that, for traffic joining 'straight in', 'final approach to land' starts once you are inside a point on 'final' where you might reasonably expect the 'base leg' traffic to be, or inside the actual position of base leg traffic, whichever is the closer.

I realise that others may interpret the rules to suit themselves.


MJ

[ChickenHouse]

My view is that, for traffic joining 'straight in', 'final approach to land' starts once you are inside a point on 'final' where you might reasonably expect the 'base leg' traffic to be, or inside the actual position of base leg traffic, whichever is the closer.

That is a long version of what I meant. If you have a published traffic pattern, I would assume someone "on the published final line on the chart" to have right of way and somebody on 15nm "long final" definitely not. Isn't there a setting in the UK with something like 8nm long final, 4nm final, less 4nm short final?

[skyhighfallguy]

I just want to make sure I understand the situation as described by the OP.

There are only two planes in the sky near some airport. Just two planes. And they can't work out something on the radio to the satisfaction of both pilots?


I haven't heard anyone say something like: I offered to cross final and do a right 270 turn and rejoin final behind the plane calling on final.

Or: Plane on final offering to do a 360 turn to allow base traffic to go ahead.

And did both planes have recognition, landing, or other intense lights on over and above strobe and beacon?

[flybymike]

I can think of at least one unlicensed uncontrolled airfield in the UK where an orbit on final will bring forth shouts of derision on the radio about what a dangerous manouvre this is ( possible traffic behind) and where a wrong directional turn on final into the dead side against the traffic direction would bring a similar result ( notwithstanding that your suggestion may otherwise be completely sensible.)

[rarelyathome]

An orbit on final

Please broadcast any intention to do that so I can leave the FIR!!!

[phiggsbroadband]

My version of 'Bing' didn't translate that...

As for Long Finals....

At Hawarden, a Baluga on a 10 mile final has precedence even over a PPL student pilot doing his first ever Solo Circuit (Me.)....

It's something to remember, as I had not done 'Orbits' before.

[DaveW]

That wasn't very clever of somebody. (Not you).

Your story brings to mind a similar situation (G-BABB at Southend in 2006) which ended with a 16 y.o. student fatality.


As an aside, I've received an ATC instruction to orbit on final before now.

[Mach Jump]

I haven't heard anyone say something like: I offered to cross final and do a right 270 turn and rejoin final behind the plane calling on final.

Or: Plane on final offering to do a 360 turn to allow base traffic to go ahead.

Of all the things I see in uncontrolled circuits, I think orbiting on base and final are the most dangerous!

As an aside, I've received an ATC instruction to orbit on final before now.

I hope you respectfully told them where to shove that instruction.

I remember that 'accident', Dave. It was tragic.

MJ

[150 Driver]

Perhaps a question for ATC to answer, how do they differentiate (indeed, should they ?) a first student solo from a second or more student solo ?

When I was training, flying solo and giving a 'Student G-ABCD' call sign I was more than once given instructions to orbit (although not on final !) and extend downwind due to heavy commercial traffic. Fortunately by the stage this started happening I was close to test, no dramas but would they have known that ?

I suppose the ATC view would be that whilst not ideal, the solo student was up to dealing with whatever emergencies or instructions were given otherwise the Instructor wouldn't allow the student to go solo.

Lest it be taken out context, the question is posed out of idle curiosity, not to have a pop at anyone.

[DaveW]

Originally Posted by Mach Jump

I hope you respectfully told them where to shove that instruction.

You say "shove"; I said "going around".


In my head, though, I said...

[Mach Jump]

Perhaps a question for ATC to answer, how do they differentiate (indeed, should they ?) a first student solo from a second or more student solo?

Usually, the Instructor will give ATC a 'heads up' that this student is a potential First Solo when booking out, or tell them on the radio just before you go.

I suppose the ATC view would be that whilst not ideal, the solo student was up to dealing with whatever emergencies or instructions were given otherwise the Instructor wouldn't allow the student to go solo.

Nobody should be sent solo unless they are prepared for anything that could reasonably be expected to happen to them.


MJ

[flybymike]

Orbiting on Final or base under ATC instructions not particularly unusual in my experience. Maybe I'm unlucky.
Certainly it's extremely common on downwind.

[skyking1]

I think an orbit called for below pattern altitude is a very risky maneuver indeed. If a controller can't figure things out before that point he needs a little remedial training.