Circuit joining

[Level Attitude]

I think the following is relevant to the topic of this Thread:

OCCURRENCE LISTING --- Aircraft Below 5700kg
OCCURRENCES RECORDED BETWEEN 01 February 2015 and 28 February 2015

CESSNA F152 --- LYCOMING 235 FAMILY --- Circuit pattern - downwind
EGPG : Cumbernauld --- 21/02/2015 --- 201502141

Alleged poor airmanship demonstrated by C152(1) during circuit traffic pattern to R/W26. Aircraft infringes on established finals traffic.PA28 calls and reports rejoining the circuit and makes intentions of a right base join for touch and go's clear to the traffic in the area. The only traffic at the time was C152(1) in the circuit just starting the downwind leg. PA28 reports joining right base for 26 and C152(1) then reports downwind 26. PA28 completes a touch and go and C152(1) does a go around from their approach. At this point, C152(2) calls inbound from the north to rejoin the circuit from right base. PA28 then reports established downwind for another touch and go. This call is followed by C152(2) reporting joining base leg and is made aware of PA28 midfield downwind. C152(2) then reports right base for 26 and PA28 reports turning right base at the water features, which is an unofficial turning point in the circuit due to noise abatement. C152(1) reports late downwind and asks PA28 to make clear his intentions to which PA28 replies that they are turning right base 26 for a further touch and go. C152(2) reports final to land. C152(1) instructor then calls PA28 over the radio and states that they (PA28) are, "way outside the circuit" and that they, C152(1), were going to position number two in traffic. C152(1) then prematurely turns right base which puts PA28 on their left hand side. PA28 turns and reports established on a 4 mile final for 26 with C152(1) in front on a 1 mile final which put them number two in traffic. Then, C152(1) turns final and goes in front of PA28 and behind C152(2). This put three aircraft on finals within 3 miles of each other. The PIC of PA28 made an avoidance orbit on finals as he felt that safety had been compromised

[thing]

Then, C152(1) turns final and goes in front of PA28 and behind C152(2)

Shouldn't that be the other way round? C152 (2) turns final behind C152(1)? Unless I'm visualising it wrong. No hang on

PA28 turns and reports established on a 4 mile final for 26 with C152(1) in front on a 1 mile final which put them number two in traffic. Then, C152(1) turns final and goes in front of PA28 and behind C152(2). This put three aircraft on finals within 3 miles of each other.

The aircraft on 1 mile final in front of the 28 should be 152 (2) shouldn't it?

[Mach Jump]

The PIC of PA28 made an avoidance orbit on finals as he felt that safety had been compromised

I think that this was the most dangerous action taken during this incident.

The PA28 claims to have turned base over a recognised feature (the lakes) although it seems unlikely that any recognised noise abatement circuit would have an aircraft turning final at 4 miles.

152(1) (after what sounds like some rather pointed, non standard RT) then cut in front of the PA28.

The PA28 then found himself No.3 on final, and should have gone around. Instead, he chose not to conform with the traffic pattern, and performed an orbit on final, endangering any unknown traffic behind him.

The two of them are as bad as each other, and someone at Cumbernauld should crack their heads together!

Thing:

The aircraft on 1 mile final in front of the 28 should be 152 (2) shouldn't it?

Yes, and then C152(1) turned final between them. (If I've read it correctly.)


MJ

[ChickenHouse]

Alleged poor airmanship demonstrated by C152(1) during circuit traffic pattern to R/W26. Aircraft infringes on established finals traffic.PA28 calls and reports rejoining the circuit and makes intentions of a right base join for touch and go's clear to the traffic in the area.

Q: What does "rejoining" mean, were they at the circuit before, leaving the field and returning, so in the end - familiar with the airfield and its training specific?
Q: What was the purpose to join right base, instead of go 45 down? What traffic circuit is regular at the field, left hand, right hand, or both? Any special traffic circuit paths published?

The only traffic at the time was C152(1) in the circuit just starting the downwind leg. PA28 reports joining right base for 26 and C152(1) then reports downwind 26.

Q: Why did PA28 set itself in front of the C152, instead of extending approach and join downwind?

PA28 completes a touch and go and C152(1) does a go around from their approach. At this point, C152(2) calls inbound from the north to rejoin the circuit from right base.

Q: Is it usual procedure at this field to join right base?

PA28 then reports established downwind for another touch and go. This call is followed by C152(2) reporting joining base leg and is made aware of PA28 midfield downwind. C152(2) then reports right base for 26 and PA28 reports turning right base at the water features, which is an unofficial turning point in the circuit due to noise abatement.

Q: Was C152(2) joining right base? Is the "unofficial" turning point published, or just a tale?

C152(1) reports late downwind and asks PA28 to make clear his intentions to which PA28 replies that they are turning right base 26 for a further touch and go. C152(2) reports final to land. C152(1) instructor then calls PA28 over the radio and states that they (PA28) are, "way outside the circuit" and that they, C152(1), were going to position number two in traffic.

Q: Is the standard pattern an ICAO 1-1-1 rectangular? Then C152(1) FI is quite right to remind PA28 of its leaving of the - by two training sessions occupied -pattern.

C152(1) then prematurely turns right base which puts PA28 on their left hand side. PA28 turns and reports established on a 4 mile final for 26 with C152(1) in front on a 1 mile final which put them number two in traffic. Then, C152(1) turns final and goes in front of PA28 and behind C152(2). This put three aircraft on finals within 3 miles of each other.

Q: What means premature? If this was following the usual pattern it is not nice, but understandable for the usual ab initio training.
Q: PA28 does know about the two machines already in student traffic pattern circling. Why did they go that far out the pattern. In my opinion at almost no airfield flying VFR there exists a 4 miles final. This flying straight in from far away and not part of pattern, or?

The PIC of PA28 made an avoidance orbit on finals as he felt that safety had been compromised.

Q: Isn't it PA28 compromising safety at this stage? If there was enough altitude to safely perform a 360 instead of a Go-Around, there must have been a very large safety margin, much better then performing a Go-Around?

My resumee, wrong communication and lack of situational awareness, plus an obvious breach of regular procedures by believing to be part of traffic pattern while far outside. Mixing PA28 and C152 in pattern needs more thoughtfulness then shown. Without knowing the answers to above Q's, I would assume the PA28 should not have done a long final, but break the approach and join standard procedure 45 down again. If a long final approach was part of the training PA28, then a clear announcement and coordination with the two C152 should have been done before attempting. Subjections?

[bingofuel]

Maybe they should all read the AIS

Which says:-

Circuit height: 1000 ft QFE. Join overhead at 2000 ft QFE, descending dead-side to join the circuit.

And not join direct to base leg.

[Mach Jump]

Q: What was the purpose to join right base, instead of go 45 down?

We don't have a 45 degree downwind join in the UK.


MJ

[150 Driver]

Thing, just drawn this and agree the one on 1 mile final should be C152(2)

Somewhere on this thread (sorry, if I retread all of it I will lose the will to live) I'm sure I've read a suggestion that if you are behind someone who flies a bomber circuit then the answer is a radio call 'GABCD has left the circuit, GDEFG now number 2'

This scenario proves the problem of such a testosterone fuelled approach.

Whether C152-1 did what he (probably was a he) did out of frustration, being behind schedule or whatever, surely it's better to be patient, later and alive ? And wouldn't this have led to a great deal of inconvenient paperwork ? I'm guessing that it didn't happen because he wasn't aware of PA28.

Did PA28 extend final because of slow approach speed of C152(2) compared to PA28 (never flown a PA28 so don't know what it approaches at)

The PA28 orbit (unless under ATC instruction) was dangerous for all the reasons mentioned. Go around would have been the safer option

I agree with MJ that heads should be knocked together, but only when safely in the ground

Anyway, what's the hurry ? We spend most of our lives on the ground, we learned to fly to leave it so why rush to get back down

[Jan Olieslagers]

We don't have a 45 degree downwind join in the UK.

Is there any rule or law forbidding it? Please quote official source?

Or is there a list limiting the ways one can legally join the circuit? Please quote official source?

[150 Driver]

Out of interest, just looked at the AIP for Cumbernauld.

"Noise Abatement:-
Runway 26 Departures: After take-off continue over golf course then turn right over the canal avoiding the old town of Dullatur.
(b) Circuit Traffic: Circuit traffic on crosswind should turn downwind and avoid overflying the small villages of Banton and High Banton.
(c) On right base for Runway 26 righthand avoid overflying small row of seven houses at Braeface."

They must be seriously large houses to cause a four mile Final !!!

[ChickenHouse]

We don't have a 45 degree downwind join in the UK.

Is there any rule or law forbidding it? Please quote official source?

Or is there a list limiting the ways one can legally join the circuit? Please quote official source?

In this case it is clearly the AIP for that airfield: overhead join at 2000ft AGL descent to 1000ft AGL is published as VFR procedure. (And ATZ is 2nm around the field, so 4 nauticals is Lord Farquart ... far far away kingdom.

[Jan Olieslagers]

But I wan't questioning whatever rules apply at this particular field - there may be many, imposed either by higher or local authority, and of course they have to be respected.

I was - and continue to be - questioning the very generalistic "We don't have _____ in the UK". It seems a large assumption.

[fireflybob]

Quote:
We don't have a 45 degree downwind join in the UK.
Is there any rule or law forbidding it? Please quote official source?

Or is there a list limiting the ways one can legally join the circuit? Please quote official source?

Jan Olieslagers, if you read the whole of this thread I think you will find this has been indirectly covered in the sense that the Rules of the Air state that a) all turns in the ATZ must be to the left (unless ground signals indicate otherwise) and b) aircraft joining must conform to the pattern of traffic formed by other a/c.

I am not very familiar with the "45 degree join" but I believe a turn against the circuit direction would have to be made when joining somewhere along the downwind leg. Also if there are a/c already in the pattern you are not "conforming...etc".

I was - and continue to be - questioning the very generalistic "We don't have _____ in the UK". It seems a large assumption.

I suppose one could pose the question "Don't you have an overhead join in the USA (or any other State)?".

Whilst not technically legislation this is published by the CAA so notwithstanding local airfield procedures this is how the CAA expect aircraft in the UK to join the circuit at an airfield with no ATC:-

"Overhead" Join

When in Rome do as the Romans.