Plane crash near Basingstoke UK
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A & C (CCC) 
Going back to my original post about the German and English world war pilots riding out a storm by landing in the same field and becoming friends as they shared cigarettes and chatted also brought to mind the differences between then and today!
Back then some guy flew under the bridges along the thames through London.
Today the guy would be locked in prison.
We are so regulated and media covered that an off airfield landing is something to be feared not just with the dangers of doing so especially in a tri gear aircraft but also the repercussions in the media and highlighting all round that such a procedure might incur.
I am sure many do not even consider an off airfield landing as an option preferring to battle it out often as in this case with tragic consequences.
This is where the mindset of the glider pilot differs as an off airfield landing by a glider is far more accepted and expected than with a powered aircraft.
Pace
Going back to my original post about the German and English world war pilots riding out a storm by landing in the same field and becoming friends as they shared cigarettes and chatted also brought to mind the differences between then and today!
Back then some guy flew under the bridges along the thames through London.
Today the guy would be locked in prison.
We are so regulated and media covered that an off airfield landing is something to be feared not just with the dangers of doing so especially in a tri gear aircraft but also the repercussions in the media and highlighting all round that such a procedure might incur.
I am sure many do not even consider an off airfield landing as an option preferring to battle it out often as in this case with tragic consequences.
This is where the mindset of the glider pilot differs as an off airfield landing by a glider is far more accepted and expected than with a powered aircraft.
Pace
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I am sure many do not even consider an off airfield landing as an option preferring to battle it out often as in this case with tragic consequences.
This is where the mindset of the glider pilot differs as an off airfield landing by a glider is far more accepted and expected than with a powered aircraft.
This is where the mindset of the glider pilot differs as an off airfield landing by a glider is far more accepted and expected than with a powered aircraft.
I am not aware of the landing characteristics of the aircraft in this incident but I would suggest a complete handful and very uncertain outcome for any pilot, however competent they are, when you take into account the generally reported low cloud base and pretty dreadful weather.
The first mistake I believe this guy sadly made was driving to the airport.
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Pace / 007helicopter
I think it's all a question of mindset, as has been stated.
Glider pilots train for landing out and it's de rigueur when cross-country flights cannot be completed.
PPLs on the other hand expect to return to base or fly on to destination.
Diversions are taught, but generally in a controlled manner to a suitable alternate airfield.
Maybe the emphasis should be changed and when 'diversions' are necessary, due to weather or lack of daylight, these are coupled with the mindset that a precautionary landing may be required if a suitable airfield cannot be reached. Diversion to a pre-planned precautionary landing (hopefully at some form of suitable 'airfield') rather than the precautionary landing being an emergency.
Not much difference in training requirements necessarily, but possibly a giant leap in respect of mindset regarding 'options'.
However, the overriding factor must be fear and uncertainty. Landing a light aircraft in an unknown field, as 007helicopter points out, with little training or experience (especially in poor weather and/or failing light) is no small undertaking. I'm not sure I'd be too happy faced with that prospect - which is no doubt why so many press on hoping that the outcome will be better than the field landing option.
The superior pilot is one who uses his superior knowledge to avoid situations which require the use of his superior skills!!!
In other words time spent on flight planning and threat and error management will significantly reduce the possibility of a hazardous situation arising in the flight.
I think it's all a question of mindset, as has been stated.
Glider pilots train for landing out and it's de rigueur when cross-country flights cannot be completed.
PPLs on the other hand expect to return to base or fly on to destination.
Diversions are taught, but generally in a controlled manner to a suitable alternate airfield.
Maybe the emphasis should be changed and when 'diversions' are necessary, due to weather or lack of daylight, these are coupled with the mindset that a precautionary landing may be required if a suitable airfield cannot be reached. Diversion to a pre-planned precautionary landing (hopefully at some form of suitable 'airfield') rather than the precautionary landing being an emergency.
Not much difference in training requirements necessarily, but possibly a giant leap in respect of mindset regarding 'options'.
However, the overriding factor must be fear and uncertainty. Landing a light aircraft in an unknown field, as 007helicopter points out, with little training or experience (especially in poor weather and/or failing light) is no small undertaking. I'm not sure I'd be too happy faced with that prospect - which is no doubt why so many press on hoping that the outcome will be better than the field landing option.
The superior pilot is one who uses his superior knowledge to avoid situations which require the use of his superior skills!!!
In other words time spent on flight planning and threat and error management will significantly reduce the possibility of a hazardous situation arising in the flight.
Back then some guy flew under the bridges along the thames through London.
Today the guy would be locked in prison.
Today the guy would be locked in prison.
Pilots who own their own aeroplanes are reluctant to land them in fields regardless of the situation.
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Whopity, I am not sure that I can concur with your last sentence.
As an ex 50% owner, on the couple of occasions I actively considered landing in a field, ownership didn't enter my head. I simply wanted to execute the right call at that moment.
Separately, 'press-on-itis' can be a cruel mistress. But if only out of self-preservation, I am not sure that the several posters who have laboured the subject of whether or not one has recently carried out a powered pfl as being a factor in this particular incident are on the mark.
It would appear that this guy had, indeed, elected to get down anywhere he could, otherwise I doubt that he would have been as low as he was.
Whether or not he should have been aloft in the first place has already been copiously covered.
As an ex 50% owner, on the couple of occasions I actively considered landing in a field, ownership didn't enter my head. I simply wanted to execute the right call at that moment.
Separately, 'press-on-itis' can be a cruel mistress. But if only out of self-preservation, I am not sure that the several posters who have laboured the subject of whether or not one has recently carried out a powered pfl as being a factor in this particular incident are on the mark.
It would appear that this guy had, indeed, elected to get down anywhere he could, otherwise I doubt that he would have been as low as he was.
Whether or not he should have been aloft in the first place has already been copiously covered.
A couple of years ago, having got caught out by weather deteriorating faster than expected, I landed a microlight on a golf course. A few days later, with permission and better weather, I flew it out again.
It being an interesting anecdote, I told it s few times - and noticed the responses from various people. ..
Glider pilots were bemused that I thought it was even interesting enough to bother telling the story.
Microlight pilots tended to think about it, then agree that I'd done the right thing.
Light aeroplane pilots were us usually horrified that I had done something so radical.
Microlights are obviously short field aeroplanes, but actually a C172 would have handled the field fine. It's an interesting reflection on attitudes I thought.
G
It being an interesting anecdote, I told it s few times - and noticed the responses from various people. ..
Glider pilots were bemused that I thought it was even interesting enough to bother telling the story.
Microlight pilots tended to think about it, then agree that I'd done the right thing.
Light aeroplane pilots were us usually horrified that I had done something so radical.
Microlights are obviously short field aeroplanes, but actually a C172 would have handled the field fine. It's an interesting reflection on attitudes I thought.
G
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Many years ago I had a fuel vapor lock and landed on a golf course. I said that I would leave once things had cooled down, and was invited into the clubhouse for a (soft) drink. As I walked in, carrying my flying helmet, there was a concerted shout "HAS HE PAID HIS GREEN FEES"!
A while ago I went through all the NTSB statistics for off-runway forced landings in Long-EZEs and Vari-EZEs and the chances of them proving fatal were substantial - off the top of my head 30% to 50% depending on how you counted. By contrast it was hard to find a Piper Cub fatality due to an engine failure. There were a few stall-spin accidents but that was just about all.
It seems to me that precautionary landings are an excellent idea in the right aircraft, but not to be undertaken lightly in anything higher performance.
It seems to me that precautionary landings are an excellent idea in the right aircraft, but not to be undertaken lightly in anything higher performance.
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It seems to me that precautionary landings are an excellent idea in the right aircraft, but not to be undertaken lightly in anything higher performance.
But that leaves a much broader group of amateur builts, which are not required to have, and may not have the "off field" capability of even the bigger singles.
It can be a tough decision to land off airport, for precautionary reasons. There may also be insurance implications, as it could be considered a deliberate "landing", but not on a runway, as it specified for some policies. Of course, it is much more wise to sacrifice the plane neatly, to save your life, but that is not trained well.
I spent a lot of time ferrying high performance singles, and those many hours afforded me the protracted opportunity to be thinking "where would I put it in now?". And then, to refine things, would it be gear up, or gear down. Most often, my conclusion resulted in the potential selection of gear up. There'd be damage, but less chance of destruction.
I've been very lucky, I've been forced to land both power on and off a few times, and I have always managed to land damage free, at a place from which a later takeoff could be accomplished no fuss. Now, in the amphibian flying boat, I look for a body of water. If not that, then yes, I probably will slide it onto it's belly gear up, unless the surface looks particularly welcoming to wheels.....
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Guys, I understand the reservations you're expressing but it still leaves a huge fraction of the SEP GA fleet that can be potentially successfully landed off-airport. I would never advocate such a landing be undertaken lightly but, in the right (wrong?) circumstances, a controlled out-landing is far preferable to having an unrated pilot or aircraft push on into bad weather or failing light. In those circumstances, truly any landing you can walk away from...etc.
I guess it's the same the world over but precautionary search and landing is still a big part of the Australian PPL training regime.
I guess it's the same the world over but precautionary search and landing is still a big part of the Australian PPL training regime.
Last edited by tecman; 12th Jan 2015 at 09:54. Reason: typo
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Of airport landings
It is not just GA than needs to consider off airport landings, no matter what the size of aircraft it can become an unviable flying machine.
It is the speed of mindset change that is important, the A320 in the Huson river and the guy who put the HS748 back on the remaining runway at Stansted ( despite being long past V1) are both prime examples of flexable thinking that undoubtedly saved the lives of all on board.
Putting an airliner into a field is a very last resort but I can't think of a light aircraft that I would rather fly into a cloud covered hill rather than land in a controled fashion in a field.
It is the speed of mindset change that is important, the A320 in the Huson river and the guy who put the HS748 back on the remaining runway at Stansted ( despite being long past V1) are both prime examples of flexable thinking that undoubtedly saved the lives of all on board.
Putting an airliner into a field is a very last resort but I can't think of a light aircraft that I would rather fly into a cloud covered hill rather than land in a controled fashion in a field.
A quick search of Spectators' Balcony (Spotters' Corner) will reveal an interesting situation that happened in Devon in 1980. Check under "vickers viscount crash".
Last edited by Sleeve Wing; 12th Jan 2015 at 12:32. Reason: To make the subject easier to find.
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I do think that mindset plays a significant part. A glider pilot runs out of options when the lift runs out and a landing becomes inevitable. The powered pilot continues to have options right down to the ground and there is a slow degradation to the number of options. Vis diminishes slowly, just fly another 100' lower etc. At some point the pilot needs to take a firm decision and actively switch from "flying in poor conditions" to "find a place to land". How do we train for this? For example, the precautionary landing training I had included flying past at 500' and 100' to assess the field before making an approach. But the training didn't include the decision to switch from flying to landing. And as I sit in my comfy chair, with a cup of coffee in hand, I can imagine being just a few miles from an airfield, flying under a 1500' cloudbase. Do I fly on or do I try to find a field, circle it a couple of times and make the best fist of it I can? And then the clouds are forming a little lower and it's now 1000' - fly on or land? And visibility is reducing but I can see OK at 800'...
Even sitting here in warm comfort it's not a decision I welcome and I suspect few of us would; but we all know that proper planning prevents poor performance. Anyone got a plan?
Even sitting here in warm comfort it's not a decision I welcome and I suspect few of us would; but we all know that proper planning prevents poor performance. Anyone got a plan?
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I think mind-set is the critical matter.
When training for PPL(H) we have diversions and "practice" IMC turns. About a year after getting my license, during conversion training, I did have a deteriorating weather situation and found myself unable to complete the flight. We elected to put down in a field (much easier in a helicopter) just 3 miles from the airfield; made a radio call to announce intentions and then landed / shut down.
That event changed my analytical approach; the question of "Is this the right time to park it?" now joins the question list as soon as the weather starts to look more difficult than planned. In the early stages, the answer will be 'No, vis / cloudbase are still adequate for safe flight' and I continue, or reverse course to go home, or I divert. Having the question in the analysis from an early time makes it more likely (for me) that "Park it" becomes the appropriate response whilst I still have the capability to actually "park it".
When training for PPL(H) we have diversions and "practice" IMC turns. About a year after getting my license, during conversion training, I did have a deteriorating weather situation and found myself unable to complete the flight. We elected to put down in a field (much easier in a helicopter) just 3 miles from the airfield; made a radio call to announce intentions and then landed / shut down.
That event changed my analytical approach; the question of "Is this the right time to park it?" now joins the question list as soon as the weather starts to look more difficult than planned. In the early stages, the answer will be 'No, vis / cloudbase are still adequate for safe flight' and I continue, or reverse course to go home, or I divert. Having the question in the analysis from an early time makes it more likely (for me) that "Park it" becomes the appropriate response whilst I still have the capability to actually "park it".
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... and, perhaps, the PPL equivalent of what is termed 'commercial pressure' in the airline world.
Partner/passengers putting pressure on the pilot to press on because of prior commitments and placing the pilot under duress to complete the flight to destination.
Partner/passengers putting pressure on the pilot to press on because of prior commitments and placing the pilot under duress to complete the flight to destination.
I've done it three times in fields, once on a beach, each time with no aircraft damage, 3/4 times I flew out again once the weather had improved - admittedly each time in a microlight with good short field capability.
Maybe I could be more paranoid about forecasts, but there is more than one way to ensure the safety of your flying, and a preparedness to take plan-B/C/D is one of them.
G
Maybe I could be more paranoid about forecasts, but there is more than one way to ensure the safety of your flying, and a preparedness to take plan-B/C/D is one of them.
G
I've had 5 weather diverts in several hundred hours of VFR flight. A remote, short grass strip in the middle of France was the closest I've come to a field. Certainly made for an "exciting" departure 4-up in a Piper Dakota the following morning!