IFR approach protocol in the UK
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flyme273:
Yes, lots of pilots would - including piperboy, who asked the question in the first place. But the point is, can ATC give that clearance to climb? You have (in piperboy's example) two aircraft on reciprocal headings heading for the same NDB, one climbing from 2000 to 4000, the other descending from FL250 or some such to 3000ft, and with a closing speed of perhaps 6 miles a minute. MATS Part 1 says that the lateral separation standard between aircraft on reciprocal tracks is 40nm, and also that "separation based on DME is not to be used when aircraft are within 15 miles of the overhead of the facility". That means that the vertical separation (light aircraft level at 4000, inbound CAT level at 3000) must be achieved, at the very least, before either aircraft gets within 20nm of Dundee.
You seem to be suggesting that the CAT inbound can descend below the level of something in the hold while descending outbound. SCAREEEEE!
Well, no actually. Other way round. If the controller had any doubt about the "intruder"'s ability to get to 4000 in time to achieve vertical separation from the CAT inbound, he would tell the "intruder" to remain VMC, give him a Basic Service and tell him to remain clear of the approach and report at a specified point. Otherwise he'd have to limit the intruder to 3000ft and the CAT inbound to 4000ft in the hold, and the CAT would be going round and round there till the light aircraft was on short final to land.
So what was that "direct to D4 Garmin approach" thing then?
NS
A more reasonable pilot would oblige ATC and accept an extra 1,000 ft
From a higher altitude the commercial can expedite descent i.e. use speed brakes, on the outbound heading to be level per procedure at the turn.
If this became a sticky situation ATC would give the intruder priority.
I never suggested flying below MSA.
NS
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As I said NS I personally think there should be a separate rating for working in a procedural environment in Class G.
We know what the ATCO needs to do to get separation and its relatively easy to either block there cunning plan if they are going to shaft you or facilitate things to move traffic.
But you need to know the procedural rules for separation and air law. You also need to know that you have absolutely zero protection apart from your ears and what ever toys you have fitted to your machine such as TCAS.
We know what the ATCO needs to do to get separation and its relatively easy to either block there cunning plan if they are going to shaft you or facilitate things to move traffic.
But you need to know the procedural rules for separation and air law. You also need to know that you have absolutely zero protection apart from your ears and what ever toys you have fitted to your machine such as TCAS.
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What does the CAT coming from the south comms look like inbound. I'd imagine they would be taking to Scottish Control at their cruise level, upon descent who is he switching to and at what altitude ?
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Taysector Scottish area. Then onto Leuchars then transfer to Dundee tower.
I think was the way it went last time I did that during the week.
At the weekend its straight to tower from Area I think its been ages since I have had to do it.
The last time I was doing a golf charter so we descended early and cancelled IFR with EDI and flew along the coast because they wanted to see St Andrews old course from the air, paid extra for it to boot.
That really put a spanner in the works.
I think was the way it went last time I did that during the week.
At the weekend its straight to tower from Area I think its been ages since I have had to do it.
The last time I was doing a golf charter so we descended early and cancelled IFR with EDI and flew along the coast because they wanted to see St Andrews old course from the air, paid extra for it to boot.
That really put a spanner in the works.
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Leuchars LARS was and still is H24 (though probably not for much longer) so the inbound CATs should be talking to Leuchars at weekends too.
We used to regularly get asked by Leuchars for co-ordination against Dundee CAT inbounds while operating instructional flights over Fife (along the lines of 'can you accept not above 2000ft VFR till advised?')
NS
We used to regularly get asked by Leuchars for co-ordination against Dundee CAT inbounds while operating instructional flights over Fife (along the lines of 'can you accept not above 2000ft VFR till advised?')
NS
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MJ, I like your idea of giving pilots training on ATC rules etc. So much of it is unspoken, and the uninitiated can be sitting there in the cockpit thinking "what the hell's he asking me to do that for?".
On the other hand, second-guessing ATCOs can be quite good fun too!
NS
On the other hand, second-guessing ATCOs can be quite good fun too!
NS
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On the other hand, second-guessing ATCOs can be quite good fun too!
And if its your own company aircraft with the chief pilot on board even better. Even if you have to put up with his bitching and false accusations that you pulled the overspeed CB.
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The way I read the example is that scheduled flight A operating under IFR rules is shortly due to land at Dundee. A second flight B is a VFR Cessna/ Piper also inbound for Dundee.
Flight B encounters unexpected IMC conditions and with limited equipment and training requests an IFR approach from the Dundee Controller. Dundee is experiencing IMC. Dundee is equipped with an NDB and DMEand has a published approach to RW09.
The question is how does ATC ensure separation and a safe ending to both flights? (which I would suggest is more important than any legal issues of class G airspace). MSA 25nm is 4,500ft. MSA 10nm is 2,900ft.
It seems the suggestions I’ve made so far do not receive the approval of ALTP Mad Jock.
I don’t think anyone has made “an approved” suggestion.
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Can ATC give aclearance to climb? I would hope that ATC can at least make a recommendation to assist flight A and avoid a conflict either with high ground or flight B.
From the beacon the hold is to the east, i.e. aircraft A at3,000ft. The approach procedure is to the west, aircraft B at 4,000ft. both aircraft departing the beacon in opposite directions and with vertical separation. Nothing scary.
D4 Garmin, I’ve now checked the plate, flight B, the inbound turn is made at D8, 2,200ft (MSA at that part is 2,300ft).FAF is D6.7 when further decent is made.
I’m not familiar with operations at EGPN, does all IFR traffic actually take the hold and performs a full procedure with descend within the hold?
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Many years ago I departed Aberdeen in clear blue skies for across country to Perth, Dundee and return to Aberdeen in a Cessna 150. Dundee ATC was in those days a garden hut on the little used grass strip and normally unmanned.
Returning to Aberdeen by Montrose I was creeping up the coast at 800ft under a complete cloud cover (where had that sprung from?). I found the lighthouse and turned up the river and continued creeping up to Aberdeen at by now 600ft to make a passable landing.
The CFI was greatly relieved to see me. He had authorised the flight by first calling the Met office. Unknown to myself the Met office had called back during my flight to warn of the sudden unexpected weather change.
It was my first solo qualifying cross country (I passed). The CFI was still shaking 5 Glenmorangies later.
flyme.
Flight B encounters unexpected IMC conditions and with limited equipment and training requests an IFR approach from the Dundee Controller. Dundee is experiencing IMC. Dundee is equipped with an NDB and DMEand has a published approach to RW09.
The question is how does ATC ensure separation and a safe ending to both flights? (which I would suggest is more important than any legal issues of class G airspace). MSA 25nm is 4,500ft. MSA 10nm is 2,900ft.
It seems the suggestions I’ve made so far do not receive the approval of ALTP Mad Jock.
I don’t think anyone has made “an approved” suggestion.
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Can ATC give aclearance to climb? I would hope that ATC can at least make a recommendation to assist flight A and avoid a conflict either with high ground or flight B.
From the beacon the hold is to the east, i.e. aircraft A at3,000ft. The approach procedure is to the west, aircraft B at 4,000ft. both aircraft departing the beacon in opposite directions and with vertical separation. Nothing scary.
D4 Garmin, I’ve now checked the plate, flight B, the inbound turn is made at D8, 2,200ft (MSA at that part is 2,300ft).FAF is D6.7 when further decent is made.
I’m not familiar with operations at EGPN, does all IFR traffic actually take the hold and performs a full procedure with descend within the hold?
---------
Many years ago I departed Aberdeen in clear blue skies for across country to Perth, Dundee and return to Aberdeen in a Cessna 150. Dundee ATC was in those days a garden hut on the little used grass strip and normally unmanned.
Returning to Aberdeen by Montrose I was creeping up the coast at 800ft under a complete cloud cover (where had that sprung from?). I found the lighthouse and turned up the river and continued creeping up to Aberdeen at by now 600ft to make a passable landing.
The CFI was greatly relieved to see me. He had authorised the flight by first calling the Met office. Unknown to myself the Met office had called back during my flight to warn of the sudden unexpected weather change.
It was my first solo qualifying cross country (I passed). The CFI was still shaking 5 Glenmorangies later.
flyme.
Last edited by flyme273; 13th Nov 2014 at 15:26. Reason: missed word
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Yes we have the light aircraft goes the intial approach fix and starts the procedure. The CAT goes towards the hold and takes up the hold. When the light aircraft is on the ground the CAT starts the procedure.
What you suggest is in breech of procedural seperation rules.
Basically inside 15 miles circle to the IAF the lowest always has to go first in the procedure unless there is a direct arrival via an arc. This goes out to 20 miles if they are pointing at each other.
The traffic gets to the IAF if number one and looses the height in the out bound. Number two will get cleared down when number one reports beacon outbound unless the GA procedure conflicts with that level with certain wx conditions.
If B is already at MSA and at 15miles and is stupid enough to say they are vfr they are deemed seperated and aircraft A can be at there level and cross it. If they just ask for procedural service they have to be seperated as per that service.
The real screw up is when the clueless turn up on a basic service then you end up with one aircraft only getting traffic information and the other being seperated from it when it reports what its doing.
Then real bum clentcher is when two turn up on a basic service and there is only traffic info given. Then its not unkown for two planes to be on the procedure at the same time.
Nice as your story is, my only thought is thank the lord your not flying into these airports as you don't have a clue what you are doing in a procedural enviroment.
And speaking as an ex SEP instructor and CAT Captain to be perfectly honest I don't understand why if its a single in crap WX there is such a fuss to get us in first. Being told there is a light single inside 15 miles when we are at 40 is no great issue we just bring the speed back to 170 knts from 250knts and we are much better set up multi crew with de-icing kit than some poor sod in a SEP trying to get on the ground. Poor sod bouncing around in the hold possibly weeks since they last did a instrument approach. Where as we will have more than likely done 10-20 in the last 7 days. Get the poor bugger on the ground with minimal work load.
What you suggest is in breech of procedural seperation rules.
Basically inside 15 miles circle to the IAF the lowest always has to go first in the procedure unless there is a direct arrival via an arc. This goes out to 20 miles if they are pointing at each other.
The traffic gets to the IAF if number one and looses the height in the out bound. Number two will get cleared down when number one reports beacon outbound unless the GA procedure conflicts with that level with certain wx conditions.
If B is already at MSA and at 15miles and is stupid enough to say they are vfr they are deemed seperated and aircraft A can be at there level and cross it. If they just ask for procedural service they have to be seperated as per that service.
The real screw up is when the clueless turn up on a basic service then you end up with one aircraft only getting traffic information and the other being seperated from it when it reports what its doing.
Then real bum clentcher is when two turn up on a basic service and there is only traffic info given. Then its not unkown for two planes to be on the procedure at the same time.
Nice as your story is, my only thought is thank the lord your not flying into these airports as you don't have a clue what you are doing in a procedural enviroment.
And speaking as an ex SEP instructor and CAT Captain to be perfectly honest I don't understand why if its a single in crap WX there is such a fuss to get us in first. Being told there is a light single inside 15 miles when we are at 40 is no great issue we just bring the speed back to 170 knts from 250knts and we are much better set up multi crew with de-icing kit than some poor sod in a SEP trying to get on the ground. Poor sod bouncing around in the hold possibly weeks since they last did a instrument approach. Where as we will have more than likely done 10-20 in the last 7 days. Get the poor bugger on the ground with minimal work load.
Last edited by mad_jock; 13th Nov 2014 at 16:28.
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Get the poor bugger on the ground with minimal work load
Adding to your scenarios at Dundee, I recall one incident a few years back when we were just about to call taking up the DND hold at 3000ft when we heard a roar and fleetingly saw a pair of F-16s scream over the top of us. Just as I was about to key the mike to call Dundee, they called me and said "traffic information for you....". Unfortunately a phone call from Leuchars to Dundee followed by an RT call from Dundee is slower than the speed of an F16. The F16 crews seemingly thought it was perfectly acceptable to fly right through a published hold in intermittent IMC without speaking to the controlling authority.
Another scenario (from a pal) during the brief period when that Polish airline was flying into Dundee (White Knight? White Elephant? White Knuckles?). Again, taking up the DND hold when an ATR 42 appeared out of nowhere crossing right across him. Turned out the guy was inbound to the hold, saw a gap in the clouds and decided he would take a 'more efficient' route to final. They lasted 7 months - luckily without serious mishap.
NS
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And you know what they'll do!
