Flying school loses my PPL examination records - what to do?
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Around 20 years ago, a close friend got well into his PPL training before parental illness and eventual demise (both) caused him to shelve it.
Forward several years and interest was rekindled.....every lesson had been signed-off by his Blackpool instructor, in his logbook. He completed his training at Barton and the CAA accepted all the logged, signed hours....As far as I can remember his R/T exam was also counted...could be wrong on that, but remember him telling of a crackly headset in a "soundproof" room and having to carry out various R?T procedures/readbacks etc. AFAIK, that was at Blackpool.
'MORAL'...ALWAYS get a signature /receipt/acknowledgement IN WRITING
How many have been faced with a bill....."but I paid joe bloggs"..".well he doesn't recall you paying him! "
Forward several years and interest was rekindled.....every lesson had been signed-off by his Blackpool instructor, in his logbook. He completed his training at Barton and the CAA accepted all the logged, signed hours....As far as I can remember his R/T exam was also counted...could be wrong on that, but remember him telling of a crackly headset in a "soundproof" room and having to carry out various R?T procedures/readbacks etc. AFAIK, that was at Blackpool.
'MORAL'...ALWAYS get a signature /receipt/acknowledgement IN WRITING
How many have been faced with a bill....."but I paid joe bloggs"..".well he doesn't recall you paying him! "
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Works the other way:
I got my PPL in 1993 at a fine large grass airport in East Anglia.
Two years later the Labour council sold it off for housing and the three resident flying training schools were booted out and scattered to the four winds.
My school was sold, renamed and the set up transferred to a large commercial airport in E Anglia.
Fast forward to 2008 (15 years) when I went to a school at said airport to do a rapid Night Qualification prior to starting IR training.
Where did you do your PPL? I was asked. I told them.
'Just a mo' said the nice man behind the desk, walked over to a filing cabinet and fished out my training records from 15 years previously.
So: not all FBOs are sh ite at keeping records.
Good luck at getting resolution to your problem.
Cusco
I got my PPL in 1993 at a fine large grass airport in East Anglia.
Two years later the Labour council sold it off for housing and the three resident flying training schools were booted out and scattered to the four winds.
My school was sold, renamed and the set up transferred to a large commercial airport in E Anglia.
Fast forward to 2008 (15 years) when I went to a school at said airport to do a rapid Night Qualification prior to starting IR training.
Where did you do your PPL? I was asked. I told them.
'Just a mo' said the nice man behind the desk, walked over to a filing cabinet and fished out my training records from 15 years previously.
So: not all FBOs are sh ite at keeping records.
Good luck at getting resolution to your problem.
Cusco
Well done Abdulla. Looks like you will be ok after all. 
Only if they fail. If they pass, the Examiner is supposed to revise the incorrect answers, and make sure the candidate understands why they were wrong.
Welcome to most of the real world, BEagle. Whilst there are Exam Papers sitting in drawers in flying schools, the system will be generally shambolic, and the contents will become widely known on the internet within days of their issue.
The recent stupidity with regard to the content and 'sitting' regime of the UK PPL TK Exams has brought them into such disrepute, I doubt that the paper Exams will ever recover any integrity.
MJ
...and as an examiner you are not allowed to tell the candidate which questions they have passed or failed......
Are there still PPL schools which pay such lip service to the requirements of the Standards Document
The recent stupidity with regard to the content and 'sitting' regime of the UK PPL TK Exams has brought them into such disrepute, I doubt that the paper Exams will ever recover any integrity.
MJ
Last edited by Mach Jump; 13th Sep 2014 at 00:20. Reason: Housekeeping
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Well, its not over yet.
As was asked to, I did turn up at the school on Sat morning only to find out the guy who called me was off! The person in for him was not told much about the situation...so had to wait a few hours for the CFI to come in...only to find out he didnt really know much either(whereas i was told by email that the CFI has requested me to come in before he signs my logbook)...basically no body knew what was happening and what was to be done or why i had been called down there (no surprises)!
All the theory exam records were found but had to be signed by some guy who doesnt work there anymore. In regards to my log book, the CFI did not want to sign it as I hadnt flown all the hours with him (fair enough)...they didnt have a file with all the flying training (are they suppose to have something like this?) and so its going to take a few weeks for them track all the hours down and them sign my logbook.
I am hoping that all will be sorted out! but until i have all my records, it will be hard not be worried!
@madjock: I have nothing against the school or anyone there. their lack of organisation has/will cost me in thousands literally! I cant go away to spain as i planned and finish of my PPL and looking at the weather here, its not going to happen before I have to head back home for work. So will have to get a visa, come back again, stay in a hotel and finish my PPL!
As was asked to, I did turn up at the school on Sat morning only to find out the guy who called me was off! The person in for him was not told much about the situation...so had to wait a few hours for the CFI to come in...only to find out he didnt really know much either(whereas i was told by email that the CFI has requested me to come in before he signs my logbook)...basically no body knew what was happening and what was to be done or why i had been called down there (no surprises)!
All the theory exam records were found but had to be signed by some guy who doesnt work there anymore. In regards to my log book, the CFI did not want to sign it as I hadnt flown all the hours with him (fair enough)...they didnt have a file with all the flying training (are they suppose to have something like this?) and so its going to take a few weeks for them track all the hours down and them sign my logbook.
I am hoping that all will be sorted out! but until i have all my records, it will be hard not be worried!
@madjock: I have nothing against the school or anyone there. their lack of organisation has/will cost me in thousands literally! I cant go away to spain as i planned and finish of my PPL and looking at the weather here, its not going to happen before I have to head back home for work. So will have to get a visa, come back again, stay in a hotel and finish my PPL!
they didnt have a file with all the flying training (are they suppose to have something like this?) and so its going to take a few weeks for them track all the hours down and them sign my logbook.
This includes the following:
Cumulative flying training achieved , and where applicable synthetic flight training achieved.
For each training flight or synthetic flight training detail, the date, the aircraft registration, or FSTD identification, the flight time, the instructor’s name in full, the syllabus exercise number and written comments by the instructor on the students performance, progress and other factors such as attitude and manner during the detail and during the course as a whole. The record shall indicate the standard achieved in relation to the laid down performance standard and any deviations from the syllabus including incomplete items. The students are required to sign each report acknowledging the debrief.
A summary of flying exercises completed with the date on which each exercise in the air or on the FSTD.
All records should be kept for a minimum period of 3 years.
All the theory exam records were found but had to be signed by some guy who doesnt work there anymore.
MJ
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@matchjump: The school has record of the examiner and they are on it...
@parazgod: Yeah, I agree. Whatever I write is from my recent experience and losses. Previous to that I did enjoy flying there and the bunch were definitely welcoming. I have other friends who did their PPL there and everything did go smoothly...dont know why there was a lack of my file keeping.
@Kieth: They did not have a file according to document 55...and so now are tracking down all the planes i flew on and using the tech logs to verify my flying hours
@parazgod: Yeah, I agree. Whatever I write is from my recent experience and losses. Previous to that I did enjoy flying there and the bunch were definitely welcoming. I have other friends who did their PPL there and everything did go smoothly...dont know why there was a lack of my file keeping.
@Kieth: They did not have a file according to document 55...and so now are tracking down all the planes i flew on and using the tech logs to verify my flying hours
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I can almost garantee that the majority of schools would be in the same position in regards to the exam procedures.
It is unfair to label them as some sort of special case in there method of dealing with the exams.
You can also be a ground examinor without being issued with a set of exam papers.
It is unfair to label them as some sort of special case in there method of dealing with the exams.
You can also be a ground examinor without being issued with a set of exam papers.
I can almost garantee that the majority of schools would be in the same position in regards to the exam procedures.
It is unfair to label them as some sort of special case in there method of dealing with the exams.
It is unfair to label them as some sort of special case in there method of dealing with the exams.
You can also be a ground examinor without being issued with a set of exam papers.
MJ
It is unfair to label them as some sort of special case in there method of dealing with the exams.
As I said in one of my previous posts, there are probably many schools out there with student records systems that do not comply with the CAA Standards Documents. But this is not a reason for hiding cases where poor recording causes problems for students.
Schools with poor recording systems are clearly not going to improve things simply because the CAA have issued Standards Documents. And the CAA auditors are clearly incapable of detecting these problems. But one or two embarrassing threads here on pprune just might cause some of them to sharpen up their acts.
Looking at the winder picture, it is interesting to note that while these dreadful recording problems continue, the CAA GA Working Group are devoting their energies to more important matters such as reducing the number of exams from 9 to 6, without actually improving any of the questions.
Iceberg? What iceberg? Hmmmm Now where exactly is the best place for these deckchairs?
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true true,
Some plonker will more than likely send out a bit of paper to be signed that the Standard Document has been complied with.
The rest of EASA seems to be going that way, some magical thing a signature makes it happen apparently.
Some plonker will more than likely send out a bit of paper to be signed that the Standard Document has been complied with.
The rest of EASA seems to be going that way, some magical thing a signature makes it happen apparently.
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"Sorry mate, I know we said you'd be able to take this exam today, but due to a thread on PPRuNe we're now having to take the mindless bureaucracy seriously.
"The next time someone will be in who will be able to supervise you taking the exam will be Wednesday fortnight.
"What? You can't take time off during the week and need to do the exams at weekends? Well, he'll be back from holiday with a spare weekend slot sometime in December.
"Yes I know I did it last time, and yes I know all the papers are in that drawer there, and yes I do have the key, and no I don't have anything better to do just right now (look at the weather!), but them's the new rules, more than my job's worth. Like I said, sorry mate."
"The next time someone will be in who will be able to supervise you taking the exam will be Wednesday fortnight.
"What? You can't take time off during the week and need to do the exams at weekends? Well, he'll be back from holiday with a spare weekend slot sometime in December.
"Yes I know I did it last time, and yes I know all the papers are in that drawer there, and yes I do have the key, and no I don't have anything better to do just right now (look at the weather!), but them's the new rules, more than my job's worth. Like I said, sorry mate."
Gertrude, the entire scenario painted in your post is absolute nonsense!
As I said in one of my previous posts, the exams do not need to be supervised by the Ground Examiner. Standards Document 11 simply requires the Ground Examiner to select a suitable invigilator. This could be any FI. There is of course then the need for a small amount of planning ahead to brief the invigilator and give him/her the exam paper.
It is only the marking of the finished paper that must be done by the Ground Examiner. This could of course cause delays in marking papers when he/she goes on leave, but once again a very minor amount of planning ahead will avoid any problems. This should of course include briefing potential exam candidates that there will be a period from xxx to YYY during which the Ground Examiner will be unavailable. So exams can be taken during this period, but they must be booked in advance and the papers will be marked immediately after his/her return.
If Asheikh's comments in this thread are accurate the school concerned has no effective student record keeping system at all. Without proper written records of flight training exercises completed, how on earth do they cope when two or more different FI's are involved? What happens if an FI leaves the company or dies? The options appear to be to simply ask the students how far they have got, or else to start again from scratch.
I'm all in favour of avoiding pointless paperwork, but not all paperwork is pointless.
As for your final paragraph, does the following version sound any more acceptable?
"Yes I know I told you that we have a proper record of all of your training, but the fact is I lied. Yes you will need copies of the written records in order to apply for your PPL but we simply don’t have any. Yes I know that this is going to cost you a lot more money, but like I said, sorry mate."
As I said in one of my previous posts, the exams do not need to be supervised by the Ground Examiner. Standards Document 11 simply requires the Ground Examiner to select a suitable invigilator. This could be any FI. There is of course then the need for a small amount of planning ahead to brief the invigilator and give him/her the exam paper.
It is only the marking of the finished paper that must be done by the Ground Examiner. This could of course cause delays in marking papers when he/she goes on leave, but once again a very minor amount of planning ahead will avoid any problems. This should of course include briefing potential exam candidates that there will be a period from xxx to YYY during which the Ground Examiner will be unavailable. So exams can be taken during this period, but they must be booked in advance and the papers will be marked immediately after his/her return.
If Asheikh's comments in this thread are accurate the school concerned has no effective student record keeping system at all. Without proper written records of flight training exercises completed, how on earth do they cope when two or more different FI's are involved? What happens if an FI leaves the company or dies? The options appear to be to simply ask the students how far they have got, or else to start again from scratch.
I'm all in favour of avoiding pointless paperwork, but not all paperwork is pointless.
As for your final paragraph, does the following version sound any more acceptable?
"Yes I know I told you that we have a proper record of all of your training, but the fact is I lied. Yes you will need copies of the written records in order to apply for your PPL but we simply don’t have any. Yes I know that this is going to cost you a lot more money, but like I said, sorry mate."
Last edited by keith williams; 15th Sep 2014 at 16:39.
Although the Standards Documents have been updated fairly recently (2013) to include the new terms like ATO, The requirements themselves are not new. They were included in previous versions of the Standards Documents. Earlier versions used terms along the lines of "Organizations conducting.....training" which have now been replaced by the term "ATOs"
The Foundation degree to which I referred in an earlier post was introduced in 2007. The requirement for recording PPL theory exam results in the application form after each exam was in place at that time.
At that same time the CAA Auditors were pushing to get our Flight School Records up to scratch. The requirements were the same as those in the current Standard Document 55.
The Foundation degree to which I referred in an earlier post was introduced in 2007. The requirement for recording PPL theory exam results in the application form after each exam was in place at that time.
At that same time the CAA Auditors were pushing to get our Flight School Records up to scratch. The requirements were the same as those in the current Standard Document 55.
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Received my records by royal mail special delivery this afternoon. Though I am not pleased with what has happened in the recent days, I do have to give credit to the flying school for bravely accepting their mistake and sorting the mess out effectively. Special mention to the senior staff - the involvement of whom I believe, fast tracked this procedure (else i was told to expect this parcel in 2-3 weeks time).
