why oh why does flaring suck the lemon :-(
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I have over 20 000 landings under my belt and ..... the other day I raped the runway.
As MJ says, experience just stretches out the ratio of good to poor landings, it will never entirely prevent poor landings.
With the rather broad agreement here as to the characteristics of a good flare entry, particularly getting the approach speed correct (slower!), students who are a little frustrated with their progress have some good advice, but better, they have some basis upon which to ask their instructors why faster approach speeds are being taught?
Altitude and speed are both energy. For a tricycle aircraft to land, it must be exhausted of energy, so it settles on. Any other technique will have a somewhat violent outcome. When you cross the threshold, the energy sum of your airspeed and altitude is what you must get rid of, before you can land. So if you're carrying extra speed, and/or altitude, the ONLY effect of that will be to displace your touchdown point down the runway, while you get rid of the energy.
The use of flaps and slipping are two good ways to get rid of excess energy, but proper glidepath and speed control on short final are better. Think of those cool sci fi movies where the spacecraft is maneuvering for approach through the acid cloud of the distant planet, and the computer is constantly drawing rectangles through which the pilot is to fly.... Imagine those triangles are being drawn for you, on the heads up display in your 152... Now imagine that in the top left corner of each triangle there is also a target speed, and in each triangle down the short final approach that speed is reducing by 1 knots, so as to be about 1.2 Vs just as you cross the threshold with the wheels a few feet up.
Flying a faster approach, "add five for the wife and kids" seems to reassure some pilots, and on a bumpy day, yes, it can make control a little easier. But plan to get rid of it very short final. If this means slowing on short final, that's okay.
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Still learning
Now 70+ hours (started learning at 52) and gone solo but still ratio of good landings rather low. So you have plenty of time.
PA28 taught approach at 65 to end of runway (fully trimmed while keeping numbers in same position in windscreen), reduce throttle, eyes to end of runway, maintain eyes at same height as if standing next to plane, gradually keep pulling back and plane will gradually transition from flying to landing as the the stall warner goes off and yoke is fully back.
Do all my bits but plane does not seem to do its bit - either dropping nose slightly (flat landing and bounce) or rising nose slightly (climbing back to 10 ft and sounding stall warner).
Reading mad_jock seems I am omitting the verbal instruction to the plane.
PA28 taught approach at 65 to end of runway (fully trimmed while keeping numbers in same position in windscreen), reduce throttle, eyes to end of runway, maintain eyes at same height as if standing next to plane, gradually keep pulling back and plane will gradually transition from flying to landing as the the stall warner goes off and yoke is fully back.
Do all my bits but plane does not seem to do its bit - either dropping nose slightly (flat landing and bounce) or rising nose slightly (climbing back to 10 ft and sounding stall warner).
Reading mad_jock seems I am omitting the verbal instruction to the plane.
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Reading mad_jock seems I am omitting the verbal instruction to the plane.
One of the successes is to remove as many variables as possible. Get as much established as far back on final as practical, so on short final, you can focus on timing the flare. This extends to glide approaches. Most airplanes are okay with glide approaches - take the extra time to practice gliding in, and landings with power available will seem easier, then you won't really bother with the power so much.
PA28 taught approach at 65 to end of runway
Working in knots, every variant I've ever flown you start faster, but with the exception of the Arrow, all of them you want to be either slightly or considerably slower than 65kn over the hedge and onto the runway.
If it's a training aeroplane, then it's most likely a PA28-161 I'm guessing. That would be around 70 initially, slowing to 63 at MTOW, but a typical training weight of 2POB and half tanks would be around 2100lb, maybe 1920lb solo and you need to scale with weight. That gives a speed over the hedge of 60kn 2-up, 58 solo.
The reason you're bouncing is probably that you are approaching 5-7 knots too fast. Incidentally, the maths says that also increases the incremental g due to vertical gusts by about 8-10%. That may not sound very much, but can make a significant difference when trying to concentrate upon getting an approach right.
Out of interest, is the stall warner going off in the flare? If it's not, that's a fairly reliable clue that you flew an approach too fast in a PA28.
G
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My second ever "offsite" landing during training had power lines running (legally) over the threshold (or so it seemed to this noob). I pulled the best landing ever in my young career so far, deeper than normal approach (plenty of rwy), early flare and slower flare than normal, and the wheels just greased themselves onto the tarmac.
Then I went back to my regular drome and tried the same thing again and again (minus the deep approach), and most of my landings were greasers.
Thinking about this and experimenting a bit more with it, I came up with the term 'standing on your ground effect' which was easily identifiable in calm weather. Essentially you begin the flare high, about 20-25ft, you begin pulling the nose up very slowly at first and you feel yourself 'standing' on your ground effect as you begin sinking, you continue pulling the nose up in a very smooth uninterrupted manner keeping the sink rate steady. If you get it right the ground effect will put you on ground gently.
Technique only worked well in calm conditions, no crosswind with medium load and low density altitude, even seen it done in a 744.
...and if you ever move onto flying helicopters you will find this technique helpful as well
Then I went back to my regular drome and tried the same thing again and again (minus the deep approach), and most of my landings were greasers.
Thinking about this and experimenting a bit more with it, I came up with the term 'standing on your ground effect' which was easily identifiable in calm weather. Essentially you begin the flare high, about 20-25ft, you begin pulling the nose up very slowly at first and you feel yourself 'standing' on your ground effect as you begin sinking, you continue pulling the nose up in a very smooth uninterrupted manner keeping the sink rate steady. If you get it right the ground effect will put you on ground gently.
Technique only worked well in calm conditions, no crosswind with medium load and low density altitude, even seen it done in a 744.
...and if you ever move onto flying helicopters you will find this technique helpful as well
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Try flying a modern glider. 15knts too fast and you will be embedded in the upwind hedge. (ground affect and low wings) Concentrates the mind wonderfully if you cant go around!
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Pa28 speed
Ghengis
It is a modified 151.
POH lists approach speed as:
Flaps up 71 kt, 10 degrees 69, 25 degrees 66, 40 degrees 63 but does not seem to mention anything relating to changing speed with weight.
Will make sure I've got the speeds sorted out next lesson.
Thanks.
It is a modified 151.
POH lists approach speed as:
Flaps up 71 kt, 10 degrees 69, 25 degrees 66, 40 degrees 63 but does not seem to mention anything relating to changing speed with weight.
Will make sure I've got the speeds sorted out next lesson.
Thanks.
It is a modified 151
If it has the special wingtips, VGs and special fairings mod that I once flew, You will need to reduce all the approach and landing speeds by about 10kt, compared to the standard aircraft.
MJ
A sum best done on the ground before flying !
G
For your average 4 seat flying club trainer a very good rule of thumb is to knock 5 knots off the POH gross weight speeds for an approach with a pilot and instructor and less than full fuel.
If we do the actual calculation for your warrior and its 63 kt gross weight POH landing speed and assume a landing weight of 1950 pounds which is the empty weight plus 2, 200 pound pilots and half tanks we get a new landing speed of 58 kts, or 5 kts less
.
You will find that the 5 kt rule will be very close for all the typical club aircraft. If the lack of precision offends you than I recommend you do the calculation for a minimum possible landing weight ( 1 person and 1/4 tanks), a mid range weight and the POH gross weight. A rough interpolation between these 3 numbers will be more than sufficiently accurate for your average club trainer.
One thing that intrigues me is the approach speeds you list for low flap settings. My Warrior POH only lists the landing speed at full flaps, which is incidentally the POH recommended landing setting. So I have to wonder if those other speeds are a result of the flying club "good idea club" throwing numbers out or whether there is in fact official guidance from Piper on the landing speeds to use at lesser flap settings ?
If we do the actual calculation for your warrior and its 63 kt gross weight POH landing speed and assume a landing weight of 1950 pounds which is the empty weight plus 2, 200 pound pilots and half tanks we get a new landing speed of 58 kts, or 5 kts less
.You will find that the 5 kt rule will be very close for all the typical club aircraft. If the lack of precision offends you than I recommend you do the calculation for a minimum possible landing weight ( 1 person and 1/4 tanks), a mid range weight and the POH gross weight. A rough interpolation between these 3 numbers will be more than sufficiently accurate for your average club trainer.
One thing that intrigues me is the approach speeds you list for low flap settings. My Warrior POH only lists the landing speed at full flaps, which is incidentally the POH recommended landing setting. So I have to wonder if those other speeds are a result of the flying club "good idea club" throwing numbers out or whether there is in fact official guidance from Piper on the landing speeds to use at lesser flap settings ?
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When I teach landings I break it down into four parts.
(1) The approach path.
(2) The " flare " from the approach attitude to parallel with the landing surface.
(3) The hold off.
(4) The touch down.
The approach speed can be almost any speed you want from cruise speed for a light single down to just above stall speed.
However a constant approach speed at the recommended speed for the airplane and all up weight usually is easier to fly.
At no time during the approach, flare, hold off or touch down do I teach them to look at the far end of the runway.
(1) The approach path.
(2) The " flare " from the approach attitude to parallel with the landing surface.
(3) The hold off.
(4) The touch down.
The approach speed can be almost any speed you want from cruise speed for a light single down to just above stall speed.
However a constant approach speed at the recommended speed for the airplane and all up weight usually is easier to fly.
At no time during the approach, flare, hold off or touch down do I teach them to look at the far end of the runway.
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I'm reading a lot here about approach speeds. To finally solve this for a pilot depending upon an indicated airspeed to establish a good approach, I'll use a sticky note paper. He can write it on that paper if he likes, but ultimately, that sticky note will be used to cover the ASI anyway.
You're not flying a 777 with an air data computer for your SEP circuits! There are many small errors in the indicated airspeed of light aircraft, so by the time they accumulate, they could be adding up to 5 knots effect, plus or minus. Calibrated airspeed, instrument error, a pilot tube out of position, a static port with a nearby defect - could all sum up to a large error. SO, if you'd like to glance at the ASI on the way down, okay. If you're going to fixate on it, you're doing it wrong.
200 feet back of the threshold, and 30 feet up, I don't really care what your airspeed is, as long as you are able to control the aircraft's speed so as to achieve a suitable flare entry speed as you cross the threshold and an appropriate height. If you want to neatly slip off the 5 knots you carried for the wife and kids, or the gusty day, at the last moments, go ahead. Just enter the flare at a suitable speed (without having ballooned to do it).
Though not so good with the wife and kids actually aboard, when I'm flying something new, or changed, I'll often do a few stalls before I land. Not the stall where the nose drops, and the ground rushes up as I "recover", but just to the point where I get whatever warning is provided, and I can FEEL CLmax. I pull back a bit more, and the nose does not come up more - I'm there. THAT is what I'll be doing as I complete my flare, with the expectation that the landing gear is inches off the surface. The indicated airspeed will not be a factor in this at all, as I will not be watching it anyway.
"Modified". Yes, some wings have modifications, which may affect stall "speeds". Pilots must make themselves familiar with these affects on the aircraft they fly. They can be considerable, and they will affect how the aircraft should be flow at flare entry. I offer the following example:
A C 182 amphibian I fly has 300 HP, a STOL kit, wing extensions, VG's on the H stab, and flies at a gross weight of 3350 pounds (rather than 2950 for the standard 182). It really is not a "182" any more. There are a number of flight manual supplements applicable to this aircraft, some with speeds, but none which resolve the sum of the speed changes - so, I'm a test pilot. I have tested. I have found power off stall speeds as slow as 54 KIAS, power on stall speeds as slow as 34 KIAS, and certainly established that a suitable gross weight glide speed is 80 KIAS.
So, working with those numbers, what's your "approach" speed? Well, let me tell you, if I'm right seat, your approach speed is 80 KIAS, by 75, I'll be telling you to lower the nose. But, I know that when the nose is raised, that plane slows so quickly, that one can approach at 80, cross the fence at 75, gently touch 200 feet down the runway, and coast neatly to a stop in about 1000 feet of runway - that's just the way that plane flies.
Consider more how the plane wants to be flown, and less what the ASI is indicating. Feel for the stall. If you feel that you have not yet perfected your sense of stall awareness, and the wife and kids aboard are preventing your practicing to feel these sensations around the stall, you need to fly some more solo or dual with an instructor in that plane. These pitch force sensation, which give you a tactile advance notice of the aircraft's progress toward the stall are about the same for any GA aircraft, and they will guide you well through a good flare - if you feel for them, and take the time to follow them through - before you touch the ground!
You're not flying a 777 with an air data computer for your SEP circuits! There are many small errors in the indicated airspeed of light aircraft, so by the time they accumulate, they could be adding up to 5 knots effect, plus or minus. Calibrated airspeed, instrument error, a pilot tube out of position, a static port with a nearby defect - could all sum up to a large error. SO, if you'd like to glance at the ASI on the way down, okay. If you're going to fixate on it, you're doing it wrong.
200 feet back of the threshold, and 30 feet up, I don't really care what your airspeed is, as long as you are able to control the aircraft's speed so as to achieve a suitable flare entry speed as you cross the threshold and an appropriate height. If you want to neatly slip off the 5 knots you carried for the wife and kids, or the gusty day, at the last moments, go ahead. Just enter the flare at a suitable speed (without having ballooned to do it).
Though not so good with the wife and kids actually aboard, when I'm flying something new, or changed, I'll often do a few stalls before I land. Not the stall where the nose drops, and the ground rushes up as I "recover", but just to the point where I get whatever warning is provided, and I can FEEL CLmax. I pull back a bit more, and the nose does not come up more - I'm there. THAT is what I'll be doing as I complete my flare, with the expectation that the landing gear is inches off the surface. The indicated airspeed will not be a factor in this at all, as I will not be watching it anyway.
"Modified". Yes, some wings have modifications, which may affect stall "speeds". Pilots must make themselves familiar with these affects on the aircraft they fly. They can be considerable, and they will affect how the aircraft should be flow at flare entry. I offer the following example:
A C 182 amphibian I fly has 300 HP, a STOL kit, wing extensions, VG's on the H stab, and flies at a gross weight of 3350 pounds (rather than 2950 for the standard 182). It really is not a "182" any more. There are a number of flight manual supplements applicable to this aircraft, some with speeds, but none which resolve the sum of the speed changes - so, I'm a test pilot. I have tested. I have found power off stall speeds as slow as 54 KIAS, power on stall speeds as slow as 34 KIAS, and certainly established that a suitable gross weight glide speed is 80 KIAS.
So, working with those numbers, what's your "approach" speed? Well, let me tell you, if I'm right seat, your approach speed is 80 KIAS, by 75, I'll be telling you to lower the nose. But, I know that when the nose is raised, that plane slows so quickly, that one can approach at 80, cross the fence at 75, gently touch 200 feet down the runway, and coast neatly to a stop in about 1000 feet of runway - that's just the way that plane flies.
Consider more how the plane wants to be flown, and less what the ASI is indicating. Feel for the stall. If you feel that you have not yet perfected your sense of stall awareness, and the wife and kids aboard are preventing your practicing to feel these sensations around the stall, you need to fly some more solo or dual with an instructor in that plane. These pitch force sensation, which give you a tactile advance notice of the aircraft's progress toward the stall are about the same for any GA aircraft, and they will guide you well through a good flare - if you feel for them, and take the time to follow them through - before you touch the ground!
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And all this work to find out what the approach speed should be and adjust it for weight.
There is a very easy way of SEEING if your at the right speed.
Just look out the window and set the attitude. Your wanting to fly the approach at AoAcrit minus a safety margin that margin won't change so if you set the attitude you will always be at the right speed. Then adjust the power to maintain the decent profile that you want.
To be honest the picture doesn't change whatever type you fly. On a new type ask the instructor to demo a approach and check that its the same then carry on and do the same as you have always done.
Sometimes I think this industry fixation on airspeeds causes more problems that it solves in teaching.
It is more than possible to fly an aircraft with no flight instruments what's so ever. I spent 900 hours in the RHS of a tommy with no instruments. And could spot the approach speed being wrong looking at the wing tip.
Learn your attitudes for each stage of flight and set them, hold them and trim for them. Then let the plane do the flying.
There is a very easy way of SEEING if your at the right speed.
Just look out the window and set the attitude. Your wanting to fly the approach at AoAcrit minus a safety margin that margin won't change so if you set the attitude you will always be at the right speed. Then adjust the power to maintain the decent profile that you want.
To be honest the picture doesn't change whatever type you fly. On a new type ask the instructor to demo a approach and check that its the same then carry on and do the same as you have always done.
Sometimes I think this industry fixation on airspeeds causes more problems that it solves in teaching.
It is more than possible to fly an aircraft with no flight instruments what's so ever. I spent 900 hours in the RHS of a tommy with no instruments. And could spot the approach speed being wrong looking at the wing tip.
Learn your attitudes for each stage of flight and set them, hold them and trim for them. Then let the plane do the flying.
I think that Step Turn and Mad Jock have given us all a much needed reminder. Airspeed is important, but much more important is angle of attack. AoA isn't instrumented, but any pilot in visual conditions (which means anybody still studying for their PPL) can and should look out of the window.
Yes, absolutely, use instruction (or the ASI) to get it right initially, then use visual attitude. That doesn't really change with weight, and once you have that pinned, nothing more than the very occasional glance at the ASI (unless somebody's stuck a post-it note over it, in which case don't bother) should be needed.
Incidentally, I'm just going to quibble with Chuck's terminology a moment...
Most texts would call your (2) the roundout, and your (3) the flare.
G
Yes, absolutely, use instruction (or the ASI) to get it right initially, then use visual attitude. That doesn't really change with weight, and once you have that pinned, nothing more than the very occasional glance at the ASI (unless somebody's stuck a post-it note over it, in which case don't bother) should be needed.
Incidentally, I'm just going to quibble with Chuck's terminology a moment...
(2) The " flare " from the approach attitude to parallel with the landing surface.
(3) The hold off.
(3) The hold off.
G
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Before someone comes on a states what I have said doesn't always work.
It does in a SEP VFR aircraft that's not damaged or carrying ICE.
If you have taken a bird strike on the leading edge, at altitude set the aircraft up in the approach config and gradually reduce the speed back to normal, Carry out a couple of turns. If everything feels ok land as normal.
If you start feeling anything note the attitude/speed and reduce slightly and that's your new approach attitude/speed.
Icing is a bit different as you don't want to hang around picking more of the stuff up. Your stall protection won't work either. So you just have to be conservative. and slow and any hint of buffeting go faster by 5-10knts.
It does in a SEP VFR aircraft that's not damaged or carrying ICE.
If you have taken a bird strike on the leading edge, at altitude set the aircraft up in the approach config and gradually reduce the speed back to normal, Carry out a couple of turns. If everything feels ok land as normal.
If you start feeling anything note the attitude/speed and reduce slightly and that's your new approach attitude/speed.
Icing is a bit different as you don't want to hang around picking more of the stuff up. Your stall protection won't work either. So you just have to be conservative. and slow and any hint of buffeting go faster by 5-10knts.