Can I legally change Flight School...?

[baleares]

This sounds like a stupid question to me, but I have been told by my flight instructor that, [for my hours gained so far to count] I am legally obliged to complete all training for a PPL licence with the same institution I began with.

I am enrolled in a "flight training academy" in Spain which I will not name and I am really not happy with the service.

I am about 25 hours in (fully paid up for 45 - [in instalments with three break points]) and I would prefer to find an independent flight instructor to continue my training and to book a skills test independently. I have passed 6 out of the 9 theoretical exams.

Am I legally able to do this or is my instructor correct ?

many thanks for any help

[for the sake of clarity, I am not asking about the legality of a refund - that is a another matter!]

[mad_jock]

he is talking rubbish but... you will more than likely loose the credit you have left. Which will be a lot.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

fully paid up for 45

If you'd come here first you'd have been told by several of us


DO NOT PAY UP FRONT

[sapperkenno]

And that children, is why we never pay up front. Thanks for starting this thread to remind everyone of such an important rule, which unfortunately people choose not to follow, and get burned.

[Heston]

Indeed and indeed...


Of course a question like this one is nothing to do with flying training. Its about commercial reality. You have entered into a contract with a provider of a service, and paid for it. If you wish to terminate the contract early that's OK, but there will be fine print somewhere to say that they won't refund you your money. And why should they? They are able and willing to fulfil their side of the contract.


You could maybe argue that they had in some way failed to fulfil their part of the contract. But what grounds have you got?


Your problem, if you just walk away (assuming you can afford to do that), will be to get them to release certified copies of your training record and exam results. If you can't get them you are back to square one.


Sorry, but the others are right - never pay up front!!

[BillieBob]

Neither you nor your instructor is entirely correct.

I would prefer to find an independent flight instructor to continue my training and to book a skills test independently.

That is not possible under current EU legislation. All training for the issue of a licence must be done within an ATO and the ATO providing the training must recommend you for the theoretical knowledge examinations and the skill test.

I have been told by my flight instructor that I am legally obliged to complete all training for a PPL licence with the same institution I began with.

That is complete nonsense - your instructor is either an idiot or a con-artist! There is nothing to stop you moving to another ATO, although, depending on the terms of your contract, you might not get the balance of your ill-advised, up-front payment back.

Oh, and did somebody mention - NEVER, EVER, PAY UP FRONT!

[Above The Clouds]

There is always one, when will people learn.

Never, Pay Up Front

[Lord Spandex Masher]

So, is it ok to pay up front for flying training?

[PA28181]

Yeh, pay up front then leave, that'll show em'

I often pay for meals in restaurants then sneak out with out eating..

Back to reality, read the small print of your contract or even spend £100 with a lawyer, it may get some cash back on failing to provide contracted services or suchlike.

[Capt Kremmen]

Yes, it is but, only to me.

[Whirlybird]

It's worth having a friendly chat saying you've decided flying isn't for you (it's not, with them, so not really a lie) and just ask nicely if you can have a partial refund. Might work, and can't do any harm.

[cockney steve]

To the OP.
Just suppose you bought a new car on Hire Purchase.
9 months later, you decide you don't like the car, the services were rather dear and you don't like the Agent's workshop staff....can you cancel your debt and hand the car back and maybe get some of your deposit back.

What do you think the likely outcome would be?

Well, If I was that dealer, I'd charge you a substantial fee,based on the lost profits, the risk of losing-out on reselling your car and the fees to the finance company, underwriters insurers etc.

I'm a reasonable person, but I would not allow you to change your mind at my expense...If you go to a baker, buy a donut , take a bite and don't like it, do you seriously expect to hand the remains back and get a refund?

Continue the training you have paid for....If you aren't happy, consider some top-up additional lessons elsewhere.
This approach would also help you establish,
A- Your expectations of the first ATO are unrealistic.
B- The ATOis, indeed below par and you are able to make a reasonable case for breach of contract and demand a refund.


PS....if you hadn't paid up front for an unknown quantity, you wouldn't be in this position now!

Yes, I know it's a bit cruel to rub it in, but at least they haven't gone bust(yet!) taking your money with them......that is the main reason why everyone says never pay up front.

[worldpilot]

...I am really not happy with the service

Well, sort out the discrepancies or difficulties you have with the ATO. Approach the ATO with the options you think could remediate the situation and advance your training.

Your best option (even though I lack the full picture of your circumstances) is to exercise more concerted effort to bring your training Endeavour to a successfull completion.

Yes, you can do it. You paid for it because you had the determination to achieve your pilot certificate. Don't let psychological problems deter you from attaining your goal.

Go for it!

Good luck

WP

[A and C]

Legal ? Moral ? Reasonable ?

It is very difficult to know how to play this situation, if the flight school fails to provide aircraft, instructors or classroom lessons then it is easy to see the cause for compliant and a refund of money.

The real trouble comes when a student is making slow progress due to lack of aptitude but fails to see this is the case, the instructor will find that he can't move forward on the training course but the student can't see why he can't move forward.........the problem will Tripple if mummy & daddy are paying and see their offspring not making swift progress............... During this time all the instructor is doing is trying to get the student through the course without being a danger to himself and others.

I have been on the receiving end of a parent who thinks that I am being nasty to Little Johny when all I am trying to do is stop him due to lack of ability killing himself and posabley some poor innocent who happens to be on the ground in the wrong place at the wrong time. It is a toxic mix, a kid who wants to be seen to be doing well and a parent who thinks that you are putting down their offspring ......... And of course if Little Johny kills the self you can guess who will be the lawyers first target.

Baleares has to be honest with himself and decide if it is his lack of aptitude and/ or attitude that is the reason for the lack of progress or is it the lack of properly structured training or lack of instructors and aircraft that is at fault.

[foxmoth]

As has been said - DO NOT PAY UP FRONT!

But too late for that now, so the first thing to do is READ your contract properly. It may be that you can do some deal with them, but you need to know what your agreement says, there is certainly no legal requirement to finish your training with them and with European law being what it is I am pretty sure that there will be regulations that will allow you to get out of this, but finding the ones that allow you to do this and get your money back will probably need an (expensive) specialist, if they fight it you will need an even more expensive lawyer to sort - good luck!

[BabyBear]

It is interesting to note questions are being asked of the students aptitude without evidence, whilst there is evidence which should cause questions to be asked of the school.

BB

[Jonzarno]

Just looking at this from a purely contractual point of view:

1. As has been beaten into your head by everyone else posting, you bought a course of lessons and will almost certainly not get any money back.

2. BUT you have paid in full for the lessons you have actually had and, therefore, I believe you ARE entitled to your certified training records in respect of those lessons so, IMHO, although you would be out of pocket, you shouldn't be back to square one.


From a practical point of view, you don't give any details of why you are unhappy with the training. I know from my own experience, not just in flying, that it's easy to become frustrated with an instructor or coach.

It's easy to start to think that they are a complete idiot only to be surprised later on at how much they have learned in that time

Before jumping ship and throwing your money away, I recommend that you have a really close look at why it isn't working. Is it really all down to the school / instructor? If it's just the instructor and you not getting on, could you ask the school for a change?

My £.02

[cockney steve]

Continue the training you have paid for....If you aren't happy, consider some top-up additional lessons elsewhere.
This approach would also help you establish,
A- Your expectations of the first ATO are unrealistic.
B- The ATOis, indeed below par and you are able to make a reasonable case for breach of contract and demand a refund.

which bit did you miss?

[ChickenHouse]

Could we please straighten out things not belonging to each other?
It gives me headache to mix up all different part.

1: there is a contract with an ATO. Under EU regulations you have to have this for centrally managing all paperworks ... up to theory exam!
2: there is theory lessons. You may have this included in the ATO contract and get classroom training from them, or you may choose remote learning facilities separate.
3: there is a theory certificate the ATO, or the remote learning facility, issues when the student ist ready for exam
4: there is theory exam. After theory certificate is reached, the student, or the ATO when part of the contract, arranges theory exam
5: there is hours to fly under supervision of an ATO
6: there is a point in time the student decides to go for exam
7: there is practical exam

Typically a contract with ATO covers paperworks (1), maybe classroom training (2), certificate of finishing theory (3).

Theory exam (4) is a matter between student and local responsible government.

As operating a plane is quite costly, timing unpredictable and breaking off education not uncommon, part (5) is fly first, then pay for you flights on the basis of used resources (flight time per minute on the plane plus used time of the instructor). Yes, there you also have a contract with ATO, but not fixed, but variable (using pre-Paid as model for flying hours is stupid, sorry).

Part (6) is solely on the students discretion, even though flight schools try to press students.

Practical exam again is like (4) a matter without ATO, even though ATO tells different and/or try to get their fingers in there.


So, back to the question.
Yes, you can always change ATO during any stage of education. It is just an announcement to government that you did change ATO (most common done at the receiving ATO).
You may not get back money for the first stage up to theory exam, as up to theory exam is typically up front non-refundable payment.
At second stage, the only requirement for flying is "under the supervision of an ATO" - and that is any ATO. If you are on vacation, have all your paperworks with you and decide to take a lessons on your vacation spots airport and ATO, you are free to do so and they will sign it to your books. You do not need to do the flying hours at your ATO, ANY will do. There also is no obligation to "get signed off for solo" as I heard several times from students. Many ATO do that, mainly to be on the felt safe side, to celebrate some traditionals and to keep insurance quiet, but it is not a formal obligation. When you collected your hours you pack all you data and the theory exam to apply for practical exam. You can do this at that stage without an ATO contract, as you do not have to be enrolled at an ATO later than theory exam ;-). I know, quite trickay and most ATOs wont tell you and it may not be advisable to go that strict way, but it is possible and straightens out power balance between student and ATO.

[BillieBob]

ChickenHouse

What you describe may be the way it is in your little corner of Europe but it is not the norm and nor is it compliant with the EU Regulation. For example:

FCL.210 Training course
Applicants for a BPL, SPL or PPL shall complete a training course at an ATO. The course shall include theoretical knowledge and flight instruction appropriate to the privileges given

There is no separation between the theoretical knowledge and the flight training, they are both elements of a single course of training. An ATO may elect to provide the theoretical knowledge training itself or to sub-contract to another training provider. In either case, it is the ATO's decision and not the student's as it is the ATO that is responsible for the training course. The exception is where an ATO is approved to provide flight training only and, in this case, it becomes the student's responsibility to find another ATO to provide the theoretical knowledge instruction.

FCL.025 Theoretical knowledge examinations for the issue of licences and ratings
Theoretical knowledge examinations for the issue of licences and ratings
Applicants shall only take the theoretical knowledge examination when recommended by the approved training organisation (ATO) responsible for the training, once they have completed the appropriate elements of the training course of theoretical knowledge instruction to a satisfactory standard.

It is not simply a matter of the ATO certifying that the training is complete, it must also certify that a satisfactory standard has been reached and must recommend the candidate to sit the exam - it is not the candidate's choice.

By the same token, it is not simply a matter of building the flying hours and applying for the licence. The ATO that is conducting the course of training must recommend the candidate for the skill test, which means that he must first satisfy that ATO that he has achieved a suitable standard.

FCL.020 Student pilot
A student pilot shall not fly solo unless authorised to do so and supervised by a flight instructor

What is this if not a requirement to be "signed off for solo"? Training must be conducted within an ATO and so it is the organisation's approved procedures that determine the exact requirements for solo authorisation.