Expo 2014 Sywell
Arrived Sywell midday today. Published procedures worked a treat.
Even with the odd pratt who had not RTFM.
AFIS very professional and courteous, even with the guy who left the procedures print out in his car!
A lot of previous ill informed comment on this thread by people who should know better.
Or perhaps they are ill informed and don't know any better!
Even with the odd pratt who had not RTFM.
AFIS very professional and courteous, even with the guy who left the procedures print out in his car!
A lot of previous ill informed comment on this thread by people who should know better.
Or perhaps they are ill informed and don't know any better!
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There was some weird radio traffic. Too many didn't have or have checked the procedures.
What was that guy doing asking for the procedure to be explained to him...
Did have a question whether 03 might have been better. Seemed to have had a tailwind on takeoff and landing
What was that guy doing asking for the procedure to be explained to him...
Did have a question whether 03 might have been better. Seemed to have had a tailwind on takeoff and landing
Arrived Sywell midday today
Managed to avoid hitting cessnapete (or anyone) despite no radio calls in the hold
A few numpties on the radio as always (including a helicopter routing outside the RAT calling for a basic service - WTF "service" did he expect from an ATC dealing flat out with landing Sywell traffic?
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i flew past it yesterday, and was listening out as it was a very busy bit of sky all around, I don't know for sure but the guy working the radio sounded very much like an ATCer to me, If not he was doing a good job IMHO.
I agree with the writer - the procedure we were compelled to use contained long radio gaps which could have contained truncated position calls. Their ATS showed capability in telling verbose pilots to shut it.
BTW. It is Pilots not aeroplanes, who one way or another are the secondary cause of danger.
mik hallam.
BTW. It is Pilots not aeroplanes, who one way or another are the secondary cause of danger.
mik hallam.
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Having flown in on Friday and Saturday I feel that the procedures as laid down worked well; it just needed people to have read and understood them. I suspect some of the problems on Friday were due to the initial lack of the grass runway and its subsequent restricted use by sub 550Kg aircraft. Having the grass runway available on Saturday there was some separation of faster and slower traffic.
The system is to a certain extent self-regulating, in that people who are not comfortable in operating the system go by road. I know of experienced pilots who refused to go, although I’m sure it was well within their capabilities. Perhaps one aspect of the perceived danger is that people are more alert. We all have a personal risk level. If we feel the situation is ‘risky’ we will take more care, or avoid additional risk.
Full ATC has been tried at the PFA Rally in earlier years and was swamped. The arrivals were eventually told that ATC was closing and to ‘sort yourselves out’, that worked. You would end up needing multiple frequencies, so people would be ‘head down’ changing channels when they should be flying / looking out for traffic. Everyone needs to remember that the aircraft flies by Bernoulli not Marconi.
The system at Sywell has run in this form for a couple of years now, including Aero Expo and the LAA Rally. The LAA Rally has two or more times the participating aircraft than does Aero Expo. I’m not sure how many arrivals could be accommodated if a rigid ATC / Slot system was enforced. Certainly less than can operate with the present system. While this might be ok for Aero Expo, it would not work for the LAA Rally. In the dim and distant past I remember reading that ‘Every airfield has an ATIS’. Basically you listen out to what is happening on the radio and form your own view of the airfield conditions. Ok, it won’t tell you how many are in the Pitsford Hold, but it does show the arrival rate at the field.
Interesting to see the Oshkosh VFR Arrival Procedure, where there are an order of magnitude more participants, although an admittedly greater ATC element.
The system is to a certain extent self-regulating, in that people who are not comfortable in operating the system go by road. I know of experienced pilots who refused to go, although I’m sure it was well within their capabilities. Perhaps one aspect of the perceived danger is that people are more alert. We all have a personal risk level. If we feel the situation is ‘risky’ we will take more care, or avoid additional risk.
Full ATC has been tried at the PFA Rally in earlier years and was swamped. The arrivals were eventually told that ATC was closing and to ‘sort yourselves out’, that worked. You would end up needing multiple frequencies, so people would be ‘head down’ changing channels when they should be flying / looking out for traffic. Everyone needs to remember that the aircraft flies by Bernoulli not Marconi.
The system at Sywell has run in this form for a couple of years now, including Aero Expo and the LAA Rally. The LAA Rally has two or more times the participating aircraft than does Aero Expo. I’m not sure how many arrivals could be accommodated if a rigid ATC / Slot system was enforced. Certainly less than can operate with the present system. While this might be ok for Aero Expo, it would not work for the LAA Rally. In the dim and distant past I remember reading that ‘Every airfield has an ATIS’. Basically you listen out to what is happening on the radio and form your own view of the airfield conditions. Ok, it won’t tell you how many are in the Pitsford Hold, but it does show the arrival rate at the field.
Interesting to see the Oshkosh VFR Arrival Procedure, where there are an order of magnitude more participants, although an admittedly greater ATC element.
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Not so ill-informed methinks
Originally Posted by cessnapete
A lot of previous ill informed comment on this thread
1) the system is self-regulated as those who consider proc risky travel by car
2) perceived increased risk, true or not, makes us sit at the edge of our seats and look out like never before
Hard to argue, and even if I'm not a great fan of adopted proc, effectively EOT for me.
2015 dates are out, I guess once I have posted this, I book the group aircraft for next year
/h88
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The slot system is never that rigid but only a means of controlling numbers.
The idea of flying VFR in sometimes marginal weather to arrive within a minute of your slot is a challenge. We had a long slog through low cloud and poor viz on our 150 km trip yesterday, Frankly, the idea of arriving on the slot time went out of the window quite early
The idea of flying VFR in sometimes marginal weather to arrive within a minute of your slot is a challenge. We had a long slog through low cloud and poor viz on our 150 km trip yesterday, Frankly, the idea of arriving on the slot time went out of the window quite early
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RTFI !
Having not gone to the Aero Expo having decided to get involved with another form of mechanical entertainment on the Isle of Man I can't comment on the goings on at Aero expo but as said above the problems seem to come from two sources.
Those who don't read or fail to understand the issued instructions ( just like the guy at the PFA rally who was trying to talk to the ATIS recorded message)
Those who are unable to fly a variable approach speed, you need to be happy with anything between 65 & 80KTS for the Initial approach to enable you to space yourself from the aircraft ahead and be of the attitude that a go-around is the likely outcome of any approach at this sort of event.
Those who don't read or fail to understand the issued instructions ( just like the guy at the PFA rally who was trying to talk to the ATIS recorded message)
Those who are unable to fly a variable approach speed, you need to be happy with anything between 65 & 80KTS for the Initial approach to enable you to space yourself from the aircraft ahead and be of the attitude that a go-around is the likely outcome of any approach at this sort of event.
One other point to mention. Due to the advance slot requirement at these events and the vagaries of the English weather, many people book at least slots for two days sometimes all three. You then pick the best weather day for your visit. There is never as much traffic as the booking list shows. In my past 3 visits I have never experienced a hold at Pitsfor,d and joined the queue direct to downwind.
Last edited by cessnapete; 2nd Jun 2014 at 06:40.
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Oshkosh does have ATC and works fine. They CAN see the traffic, tell you whether the hold is in use, which marker to land on the runway and more.
It sounds like ATC procedures were suboptimal at the PFA rally, but that shouldn't be a reason to get rid of it.
If these events get busier one day someone is gonna get involved in a mid-air.
I only hope this doesn't happen before ATC is brought in.
It sounds like ATC procedures were suboptimal at the PFA rally, but that shouldn't be a reason to get rid of it.
If these events get busier one day someone is gonna get involved in a mid-air.
I only hope this doesn't happen before ATC is brought in.
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Now the expo has finished, I hope my comments won't be considered as try to persuade people against flying in.
I have more than a few hours in my log books and have been to many of these (PFA rally, Aero Expo, etc) over the years but a few years ago I decided - Never Again. I steer away from other fly-ins as well.
I have seen too many near misses and too many idiots in the air. There have been incidents over the years, I remember one aircraft going down on short finals at a PFA rally just in front of me and being told to land over it (Cranfield I think).
It has already been mentioned that it is a smallish minority that fail to read the instructions. (The same ones who fly through Red Arrows displays, I suspect). However, in my opinion, it is a much larger proportion of pilots who fail to demonstrate good airmanship and cut up other aircraft, stop on the runway to read the next instruction, etc..
Then there are the difficulties of mixing aircraft of very different performance. A&C suggests it is easy as long as you all stick at 65-80 kts. In a Saratoga, you will be near to falling out of the sky at those speeds and so one minor problem that causes you to take your eye off the ASI and you will stall in. This show needs a better system for slow and fast aircraft.
Full ATC would be possible. Anyone who flew to the last fly-in at Filton had full ATC and I didn't hear any complaints. I did go to that and the aircraft were "landing after" in many cases so landing as frequently as possible. Yes, there were instances of people passing their date of birth and inside leg measurement over the RT but it still worked.
It is my firm belief that the lack of ATC is because they are simply unable to cope and have thrown their hands up to let the pilots get on with it.
It is bad enough some days just trying to join the circuit at a busy grass airfield. I have met aircraft flying the wrong way round the circuit, calling left base instead of right downwind, lining up to take off with me on finals at 100 ft, you name it. Are these the same people who load the wife, 2 kids, a huge picnic and full fuel to travel to Sywell (I saw two pilots do this on Saturday).
One day, there will be a mid-air at one of these shows. The risk is not insignificant, in my opinion, I just don't want to be part of it.
I have more than a few hours in my log books and have been to many of these (PFA rally, Aero Expo, etc) over the years but a few years ago I decided - Never Again. I steer away from other fly-ins as well.
I have seen too many near misses and too many idiots in the air. There have been incidents over the years, I remember one aircraft going down on short finals at a PFA rally just in front of me and being told to land over it (Cranfield I think).
It has already been mentioned that it is a smallish minority that fail to read the instructions. (The same ones who fly through Red Arrows displays, I suspect). However, in my opinion, it is a much larger proportion of pilots who fail to demonstrate good airmanship and cut up other aircraft, stop on the runway to read the next instruction, etc..
Then there are the difficulties of mixing aircraft of very different performance. A&C suggests it is easy as long as you all stick at 65-80 kts. In a Saratoga, you will be near to falling out of the sky at those speeds and so one minor problem that causes you to take your eye off the ASI and you will stall in. This show needs a better system for slow and fast aircraft.
Full ATC would be possible. Anyone who flew to the last fly-in at Filton had full ATC and I didn't hear any complaints. I did go to that and the aircraft were "landing after" in many cases so landing as frequently as possible. Yes, there were instances of people passing their date of birth and inside leg measurement over the RT but it still worked.
It is my firm belief that the lack of ATC is because they are simply unable to cope and have thrown their hands up to let the pilots get on with it.
It is bad enough some days just trying to join the circuit at a busy grass airfield. I have met aircraft flying the wrong way round the circuit, calling left base instead of right downwind, lining up to take off with me on finals at 100 ft, you name it. Are these the same people who load the wife, 2 kids, a huge picnic and full fuel to travel to Sywell (I saw two pilots do this on Saturday).
One day, there will be a mid-air at one of these shows. The risk is not insignificant, in my opinion, I just don't want to be part of it.
Thread Starter
I agree with you Bob.
We decided to give Friday a miss due to bad weather considering that poor vizability and late arrivals due to the weather increased the risk beyond my pay grade.
We went on Saturday and arrived about midday to a very quiet circuit. No problems. We however chuckled when we heard the call from the pilot who had left the procedures in his car and had not yet read them. Obviously he was going to read them on finals and hoped that others would avoid him.
As for the 'chap' who suggests that those who publish the benefit of their years of experience are 'SW, scared witless' is not only incredibly rude, but perhaps does not quite understand the phrase 'No old, bold pilots'. Moreover, to be careful is not be be pathetically wimpish, it is just wishing to minimise risk, yet still having a good time. All flying is risky; one just needs to leant from history to live to fly another day.
We decided to give Friday a miss due to bad weather considering that poor vizability and late arrivals due to the weather increased the risk beyond my pay grade.
We went on Saturday and arrived about midday to a very quiet circuit. No problems. We however chuckled when we heard the call from the pilot who had left the procedures in his car and had not yet read them. Obviously he was going to read them on finals and hoped that others would avoid him.
As for the 'chap' who suggests that those who publish the benefit of their years of experience are 'SW, scared witless' is not only incredibly rude, but perhaps does not quite understand the phrase 'No old, bold pilots'. Moreover, to be careful is not be be pathetically wimpish, it is just wishing to minimise risk, yet still having a good time. All flying is risky; one just needs to leant from history to live to fly another day.
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Arrived Friday with 3 pairs of Mk1 eyeball. One circuit of hold and followed plane in front in. One of four on final. It's the one place where everybody is on the lookout. I thought Sywell was great. Loved the Fox Moth - pilot sits outside, 3 passengers in the forward cabin. Like a handsom cab.
Oshkosh has complete radio silence (apart from the odd numpty). Thers's a bloke on the hill with radio and binos. All you hear is "PA28 with red wing stripe wangle your wings" You waggle and are identified. "Line up final you're 3rd"
They'll also land two simultaneously one short, one long. Seems hairy.
Oshkosh has complete radio silence (apart from the odd numpty). Thers's a bloke on the hill with radio and binos. All you hear is "PA28 with red wing stripe wangle your wings" You waggle and are identified. "Line up final you're 3rd"
They'll also land two simultaneously one short, one long. Seems hairy.
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Oshkosh is not hairy, just follow the procedure and it just goes incredibly well.
WRT to Sywell, I was surprised and disappointed at the number of people who either had not bothered the read the procedures or who felt they ought to disregard them and seemingly happy to publicly demonstrate it.
WRT to Sywell, I was surprised and disappointed at the number of people who either had not bothered the read the procedures or who felt they ought to disregard them and seemingly happy to publicly demonstrate it.
Just a little advice from someone who is old, has 10,000 hrs + under his belt, who has survived being shot at by SAMs, crashed....
It is my firm belief that the lack of ATC is because they are simply unable to cope and have thrown their hands up to let the pilots get on with it.
The special procedures for the event mitigate some of the risks and are probably tweaked each time, but 100s of aircraft converging on an airfield involves some risk. You just have to balance the risk against the the pleasure of flying to an airfield with 100s of aircraft there. If the risk feels too great then don't go.
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Pitsford Hold
Pitsford Hold is an accident waiting to happen!
Flew in last year and this year on the friday for a 0900 local slot.
Weather around Sywell on both occasions was low cloud tops around 2800 and the bottom about 800.
You have aircraft joining from all directions to Pitsford descending to remain VFR, with no rt calls being made on entry to the VRP. and at what height?
It needs to have another frequency for arrivals to help with situational awareness. And to help the stream of arrivals into Sywell.
PB
Flew in last year and this year on the friday for a 0900 local slot.
Weather around Sywell on both occasions was low cloud tops around 2800 and the bottom about 800.
You have aircraft joining from all directions to Pitsford descending to remain VFR, with no rt calls being made on entry to the VRP. and at what height?
It needs to have another frequency for arrivals to help with situational awareness. And to help the stream of arrivals into Sywell.
PB
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You would still be unlikely to get a significantly safer service [with ATC] than that provided by the Sywell FISOs.
At Oshkosh, ATC does issue information about whether the hold is being used or is saturated. They use traffic monitors.
Last edited by soaringhigh650; 3rd Jun 2014 at 15:00.