Expo 2014 Sywell

[Curlytips]

Anyone wanting to be an extra pair of eyes (and I've always enjoyed these busy arrivals) please see the "seats available/desired" thread!

[Helicopterdriverguy]

I was going to fly in but, the idea of meeting such a high volume of traffic in the hold and circuit didn't appeal well to my 120 Hour nature.

[patowalker]

What a ridiculous thread. Instead of encouraging pilots to attend an interesting event, it has just succeeded in putting many off going.

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

Don’t worry, you’ve seen it before….

To anyone who is worried about the traffic inbound to Aero Expo, you have probably already been exposed to heavier traffic flows. If you were doing circuits for your PPL on a sunny afternoon you may have had another three or four aircraft in the circuit. That equates to roughly one every minute or two landing or doing touch and goes.

Although the booking system appears to be giving 30 second arrivals, I’ve never encountered that sort of density at the LAA Rally or Aero Expo in recent years*. As mentioned above, there is a generous amount of information in the briefing document (I’ve laminated pages 13 – 16 for quick reference), but Leia’s summary is really all you need to know.

Hope to see you all there on Friday & Saturday.

* PFA Rally at Cranfield in the late 1990’s – OK, that was a different game…

[Sir George Cayley]

Maybe another card to hold up in the window?


SW

Scared witless

Proceeding straight to portaloos

SGC

[hegemon88]

Originally Posted by Whiskey Kilo Wanderer

To anyone who is worried about the traffic inbound to Aero Expo, you have probably already been exposed to heavier traffic flows. If you were doing circuits for your PPL on a sunny afternoon you may have had another three or four aircraft in the circuit.

I couldn't agree more. I'm not intimidated by this. I'm intimidated by this:

Originally Posted by leiafee

4. Keep your gob shut unless you're on final or on fire.

A busy circuit isn't a problem when I can see and hear what's going on. Just as recently as last week I heard "deadside descending" a second before and a second after I said so myself. A few calls later we all knew where others were. We even decided in which order to enter the circuit Now, how do I get similar situational awareness in the square hold over Pitsford, honestly I don't know...



/h88

[philfurby]

This is so pathetic what some people in this thread are saying! People with "1000's of hours" who should be encouraging the next breed of pilot's, instead saying how horrible it is and trying to actively discourage people! MAN UP!

iv been 3 times now! Now of course my "Pathetic" 108 hours.. How did I survive??!! Some people on here would call me crazy!

Oh thats it, I ignored all of the complete rubbish and negativity that people have said on here and did what i was taught as a PILOT! Iv never had a problem getting in and out of Sywell.. Just give a bit of Airmanship, Read up on on how it all works etc and its not that hard!

[BabyBear]

From the Sywell website:

****NOTE**** RUNWAY 03R/21L (THE GRASS RUNWAY) CLOSED UNTIL AT LEAST 1700 SAT 30th MAY DUE TO WATERLOGGING -


BB

[thing]

Oh thats it, I ignored all of the complete rubbish and negativity that people have said on here and did what i was taught as a PILOT! Iv never had a problem getting in and out of Sywell.. Just give a bit of Airmanship, Read up on on how it all works etc and its not that hard!

I don't believe anyone has asked you not to go. If you want to go then do so and have a good day. That's your decision as P1. It's just another day out at another airfield amongst hundreds of others each year. If people want to go and feel comfortable with it that's fine. If people don't want to go because they're not comfortable with it that's fine too, it will not impinge on your enjoyment of the day at all. It's a fly in, not a dick waving contest.

[mikehallam]

I agree with Hegemon88 substantially.

Hearing the correct calls o/hd, cross-wind, downwind & finals is what should be done. Even here for Sywell a downwind call would help one hear, as well as (possibly) see the other chaps.
Why Sywell can unilaterally (& with CAA blessing as it's the same as the LAA Rally nonsense) decide to ditch correct RT is a mystery. Obviously cluttered RT should be avoided but as it stands now we are all condemned to extra danger of Air to Air collision, because of their fear of a few numpties on the RT who could easily be advised by ATC to 'cut it'.
Add to that, an any speed, any height, any diameter 'circuit' over Pitsford and we have double trouble.

mike hallam.

[Mariner9]

Hearing the correct calls o/hd, cross-wind, downwind & finals is what should be done

Overhead joins? Descent over a deadside which would be directly over the event and thus in contravention of the ANO


Chaos would definitely ensue. At least 4 times the current radio calls, and go arounds galore as aircraft no.1 on final can't get landing clearance due to the radio being swamped with overheaders, cross winders, downwinders, and nos 2-?? on final.

The current system has worked on previous occasions, and will work again.

[sharpend]

I agree with Mike. 'See with your ears' is not possible without RT.

Whatever, keep your eyes open today as it will be busy, especially with chaps turning up late due to duff weather early on, a busy single runway and pilot overshooting because of that.

[Mariner9]

4th bullet point on the promulgated procedures:

Radio transmissions are cut to an absolute minimum, enabling pilots to concentrate on flying and lockout.

[mikehallam]

Agreed,

But 'Minimum' doesn't need to be none at all, in total contravention of normal procedures.

At Sywell this w/end I firmly believe once joining their revised circuit, a short call will help (if not prevent) pilots of a/c close to the same position to miss each other.

Lack of accidents (& conveniently excluding many close shaves uninvestigated in past mass fly-ins) is not the safety parameter it appears to be.

mike hallam.

[Jan Olieslagers]

The more I try to understand all of this, the more I get confused.

as aircraft no.1 on final can't get landing clearance

According to AIP*, this is class G airspace so how can there be a question of landing clearance? Perhaps the airspace is temporarily promoted to class D, for the event?

enabling pilots to concentrate on flying and lockout

Concentrating on flying just confirms the old adagio of "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate", nothing new there. But who must lock out whom and for what reason and under what ruling?

Just a few more UK oddities, I suppose.


*http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadba...2014-01-09.pdf

[hegemon88]

Originally Posted by Jan Olieslagers

The more I try to understand all of this, the more I get confused.
[...]
Just a few more UK oddities, I suppose.

A mention of the landing clearance was an error. No clearance is needed/can be issued at Sywell, both within and outside the Aero Expo. To confuse matters more I don't think that the class of airspace around matters that much - Southend, Cranfield and Wycombe, to take a few, are all examples of airfields with ATC (i.e. you talk to Tower rather than Radio or Information) located wholly within Class G airspace. You will need a clearance from all of them.

Lockout is a typo, I wanted to make a joke based on it myself but got distracted at work I would like to believe that the poster meant lookout.

OK, I printed all 24 pages of instructions, briefed wife into maintaining good lookout and am all set for flying in tomorrow! If it gets hot, go-around, divert Cranfield and lunch at Cafe Pacific



/h88

[Jan Olieslagers]

Thanks H88, I had some misgivings about the "lockout" being a typo. Still what you mention about Southend (and others) doesn't begin to clear my confusion. I still maintain that, as I was taught under ICAO ruling, the term "clearance" is void in uncontrolled airspace. Less surprised am I that, as I read on Southend's own website,

Pilots must keep an excellent look out (wow! surprise!), and should wherever practical maintain contact with ATC and use transponders. - See more at: Pilots Briefing Pack - Safety at London Southend | General Aviation | FBO | London Southend Airport

which I take for a clear indication that neither radio nor transponder usage can be really legally binding requirements.

It goes without saying that it is to everybody's interest to use all available means to improve safety - but I find the wording so vague and confusing that I much wonder what will happen before court if a serious accident should happen.

[hoodie]

Come on, people!

Use some initiative, follow the simple procedure and look out of the damn' window!

It's not hard, and as has been said already Oshkosh manages every year with a single radio call, or none at all, with a far greater volume of traffic.

It is depressing that:

(a) Some people clearly believe that the radio is a primary flying control.
(b) Despite the clear procedures, some are still talking as if a standard circuit join applies.
(c) Some are more interested in the minutiae of (irrelevant) regulations and legalistic minutiae than applying some perfectly acceptable pragmatism.

We can be our own worst enemies, sometimes.

hegemon88, that's the spirit! But If you do go around, don't divert to Cranfield - go back to Pitsford and have another go.

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

Having 03 Grass available today (to sub 500Kg aircraft) helped. It might be available to all tomorrow. The lighter end of the spectrum tend to be slower, so having an alternative landing runway for them frees up the hard runway for faster traffic.

I heard a few less than subtle reminders to ‘not land on the numbers and then taxi all the way up 03 Hard’. In general I’d say 90% of the arrivals followed the procedure when I was listening. This probably made the few who didn’t, or had a discussion about who cut who up, more noticeable.

Tomorrow should offer better weather and probably more traffic.

[hegemon88]

Oh boy, it was plain crazy today! (pun intended)

Still having reservations about the Pitsford hold with no RT I set off this morning with a usual delay so it was clear at outset that the landing slot would be narrowly missed. Wife briefed in about the lookout, kids fighting on the back seats, business as usual. I count myself very lucky as when I arrived, there was nobody at Pitsford, just one aircraft already heading to the airfield. I followed them right to the final, made the call, landed long to allow them to vacate and that was it. 10 minutes later, when disembarking, I saw seven (7, no kidding) aircraft on final approach and three of them already going around

A cherry on top on way back was the Luton guys squeezing me in between two landing big tin cans. Helpful as ever, thanks a million if you're reading it.

Glad I did it, in spite of earlier worries I always planned to, but now I know it can be done. With a bit of luck.



/h88