Stall & Engine failure scenario and recovery

[Pace]

Here we go again to spin or not to spin. In the right aircraft with the right instructor a spin is no more reckless than a spiral dive with far less loading on the airframe. The 152 is a doddle

but yes I think it is important to spiral dive spin and all manner of stalls but i would add it to the PPL syllabus in the form of aerobatic training with an aerobatic approved instructor and machine.
There are far less important things they can trim out of the PPL syllabus to make up the couple of hours.

I would put it in the syllabus just before the qualifying X countries

It will make you a far more competent and confident pilot than those trained in avoidance who do not know what lies beyond.

Pace

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

It (aeros) will make you a far more competent and confident pilot than those trained in avoidance who do not know what lies beyond.

Agreed. It will also teach you to fly by 'feel' and not by numbers so you are far less likely to inadvertantly go into 'departure', even with your eyes outside, where they should be when flying VFR.

The lack of aerobatic training aircraft and the almost total lack of instructors who can do it, however, is a problem.

[Pace]

The lack of aerobatic training aircraft and the almost total lack of instructors who can do it, however, is a problem.

If we are looking at spins most trainers will spin well there are just a few bad boys.
The problem appeared in the past to be the lack of suitably trained instructors
I really do want to take the emphasis away from spinning as if it is unique and bundle it up with all what you could call out of the box behaviours!
The problem I have with avoidance which is obviously the best thing to do is that it leaves a big dollop of unknown " what if I mess up what will happen? What do I do ? Am I in a spiral dive or spin? Will I react instinctively and identify instinctively what is happening ? "
The biggest fear is fear of the unknown take away the unknown and it has to make for a more confident and capable pilot should anything ever happen.

I am not trying to take away from the avoid method of training as avoid always has to be better and in a perfect world is but ??? Maybe I just had a different generation of instructor /examiners

Pace

[Genghis the Engineer]

Originally Posted by Cenus_

Interesting... at the end of my second lesson on stall recovery my instructor demonstrated two spins. Is this reckless without the precautions mentioned above? It seemed almost routine at the time.

In my opinion, yes.

Whilst demonstrating them to PPL students is reasonable, I don't personally think that spins need to be in the PPL syllabus (I do think they should be in the CPL syllabus, although they aren't), but the fact remains that aeroplanes can bite in the spin. There is suffient accident data to show that types which have spun 10,000+ times satisfactorily can then find an odd mode and spin into the ground. The odds of this happening are tiny, but they are not close enough to zero to justify ignoring such fundamental safety precautions.

I'll admit I've done this, which I'm arguing against, several times - always however when I had to finish a bit of training and the school in question didn't have the facility. I have not, and will not, ever do(ne) this as captain. I'll also avoid doing it with somebody else as captain wherever I reasonably can.

Two people I know, both instructors, have found themselves in an unrecoverable spin. One was in a Bulldog and wearing a parachute - he's still fine thanks. The other was in a T67 and not wearing a parachute; he should have been.

G

[Low Level Pilot]

As a low hour ppl I have been following this thread with interest. It is something I have thought about since getting my licence. It's all very well saying go ahead and practice by yourself but the thought is in the back of one's mind what happens if I get it wrong and end in a spin. Spin recovery is talked about, but not practiced, due to the number of instructors and students not living to tell the tale in the past.

Having said that I have accidently spun a C152 with an instructor (silly me tried to correct a wing dropping at low speed with aileron!) so I have experienced the recovery technique. Also I did some spins many years ago on a 2 week gliding course.

So, went up today in the C152 and decided to practice stalling clean. Discovered a problem, it's one thing stalling with a 13 stone instructor beside you, with just me I was doing 40 knots, stall warning sounding (faintly!), yoke right back and no sign of nose dropping!

Having followed other threads it's one thing practising without an instructor beside you in a 152, it's another in the likes of a Warrior which if not properly configured sounds like a nightmare even for someone who is well experienced in the type (thinking now of the fatal crash near Wrexham last year).

One point nobody seems to have emphasised is if you do practice low speed handling or stalling, make sure you have plenty of altitude before you start.

[glum]

"One point nobody seems to have emphasised is if you do practice low speed handling or stalling, make sure you have plenty of altitude before you start."

That should be covered as the first letter of your HASELL checks!

[Maoraigh1]

it's another in the likes of a Warrior which if not properly configured sounds like a nightmare even for someone who is well experienced in the type

Any Pa28 Warrior I've flown, I've stalled it at a safe height early on during the rental, and I've never found, or heard of, a problem.

[Low Level Pilot]

My apologies, should read Tomahawk not Warrior.

[mad_jock]

There is nothing unusual about stalling a tommy. You reduce the angle of attack and it unstalls.

If you have pants skills and use the airleons during the stall you will get a wing drop which is what should happen. Which is solved by applying rudder to stop any more yaw and reducing AoA.

Its one of the reasons why tommy trained pilots are better than cessna trained.

[Low Level Pilot]

The point I was trying to make was that if during training you are warned that stalling could lead you into a spin and if you have not experienced a spin then practicing stall recovery by yourself might not seem appealing? As regards inadvertently entering a spin in a Tomahawk my comment is as a result of reading another thread on this forum regarding the fatal crash near Chester/Wrexham last year.

As other posters have already commented spinning should be part of the ppl syllabus.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

As other posters have already commented spinning should be part of the ppl syllabus.

It was when I did the PPL (1978) and we happily spun the C150, often with a 'flick' entry to ensure it span rather than spiralled. Don't think I'd do that now except perhaps if it was an aerobat and we had 'chutes on. As Ghengis says, every once in a while a normally docile spinner will lock into a hard-to-recover spin.

I've done a few decades of aeros and probably hundreds of spins, and you soon realise that despite a similar entry technique, not all spins are predictably similar. I have been lucky in that all mine were recoverable without too much bother (flat spins in the Yak not excepted!) but it doesn't take much imagination to understand why some very experienced pilots spin-in.

I'd happily aerobat the Chipmunk (gentle basic 'Sunday afternoon' aeros) without a 'chute, but these days I'd think twice about deliberately spinning it without one.

[Genghis the Engineer]

As other posters have already commented spinning should be part of the ppl syllabus.

Both UK and USA saw a reduction in spin fatalities when it was dropped from the syllabus.

I'd argue strongly that it should be in the CPL syllabus - and done properly rather than the "quick see and let's not even bother with a parachute" done in most instructors courses. But I'd leave it out of the PPL syllabus beyond the current "understand and avoid" that's there.

G