cut up licence or not?
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Hi Guys,
I haven't flown for about five years and have not had to face the latest EASA/CAA nonsenses, so do please forgive me if I am speaking nonsense out of ignorance of current conditions.
I would be inclined to argue that the licence is what is printed on the paper, not the paper itself; (unless some special paper has been used or there is a special watermark in the paper).
So as long as the image printed on the paper is not cut, then removing excess paper from around the image, in order to aid convenience of carriage, should be an irrelevance to the validity of the licence.
Indeed by making the licence less bulky and more portable it thus aids conformance with the law by making it more likely that the licence holder will carry his/her licence with him/her rather than leaving it at home.
I would suggest that this argument should be put to the CAA, (along with mention of the fact that licences issued by other EU states are made to fit their envelopes).
If the CAA argue otherwise, then use the complaints procedure that every civil service operates to complain. If that does not work, then complain to the Parliamentary Ombudsman. The more people who complain, and complain effectively, the better.
Remember that all letters of complaint should be sent either by recorded delivery or by registered mail and a copy kept in a file. Emails are not as effective as evidence and never, never, never deal with the b*gg**s over the telephone. People in call centres and civil servants on the 'phone will lie their heads off over the 'phone because telephone calls are so easily deniable.
Above all, don't give up. Keep at 'em and at 'em and at 'em. (Believe me I speak from experience).
Good luck guys,
BP.
I haven't flown for about five years and have not had to face the latest EASA/CAA nonsenses, so do please forgive me if I am speaking nonsense out of ignorance of current conditions.
I would be inclined to argue that the licence is what is printed on the paper, not the paper itself; (unless some special paper has been used or there is a special watermark in the paper).
So as long as the image printed on the paper is not cut, then removing excess paper from around the image, in order to aid convenience of carriage, should be an irrelevance to the validity of the licence.
Indeed by making the licence less bulky and more portable it thus aids conformance with the law by making it more likely that the licence holder will carry his/her licence with him/her rather than leaving it at home.
I would suggest that this argument should be put to the CAA, (along with mention of the fact that licences issued by other EU states are made to fit their envelopes).
If the CAA argue otherwise, then use the complaints procedure that every civil service operates to complain. If that does not work, then complain to the Parliamentary Ombudsman. The more people who complain, and complain effectively, the better.
Remember that all letters of complaint should be sent either by recorded delivery or by registered mail and a copy kept in a file. Emails are not as effective as evidence and never, never, never deal with the b*gg**s over the telephone. People in call centres and civil servants on the 'phone will lie their heads off over the 'phone because telephone calls are so easily deniable.
Above all, don't give up. Keep at 'em and at 'em and at 'em. (Believe me I speak from experience).
Good luck guys,
BP.
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Does the rest of the world who may require to see you licence know of this absurdity? If I want to rent in the US for example will I be refused on the grounds my licence is invalid? I doubt it.
Surely the licence that is a privilege granted to us by the CAA is not a paper copy, It is held in their highly secure Data Protected system, where that is the one and only true record of licence issue. If I can just ring them up and ask for another copy of the licence irrespective of the cost of replacement, that itself shows how ridiculous this is. Who has the authority to ground me on a ramp check outside the UK (I know an authorised person or Constable has the right in the UK to ask for my licence?) if they see fit.
Surely the licence that is a privilege granted to us by the CAA is not a paper copy, It is held in their highly secure Data Protected system, where that is the one and only true record of licence issue. If I can just ring them up and ask for another copy of the licence irrespective of the cost of replacement, that itself shows how ridiculous this is. Who has the authority to ground me on a ramp check outside the UK (I know an authorised person or Constable has the right in the UK to ask for my licence?) if they see fit.
Last edited by PA28181; 4th Oct 2013 at 11:40.
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This rubbish dates back to the JAR licenses and I am pretty sure its more than likely the same person which is driving it this time.
With the JAR license they started to discover that everyone and I mean everyone was cutting them up to fit in the holder.
This obviously annoyed someone with zero common sense and zero experience using the things live in a flying environment.
They then tried to get everyone to get a new license which was uncut stating that it was invalid and you would get grounded in Europe if you had an inspection. They even contacted some authorities in Europe and told them that it was invalid if cut.
This was basically ignored by the inspectors, the pilots and the examiners. The inspectors could see the reason why you have done it and the examiners had cut there own ones up as well.
There was a bit of a bun fight for 6-9 months and then someone stepped in and the matter was dropped.
It looks like the side that didn't like the cutting up of licenses have made sure this time that its in the documentation to not cut it up even though this goes against common sense as previously.
The printers that print the rest of Europe style licenses cost in the region of 600 euros. And the card that they use for the licenses will be more expensive than the CAA paper or maybe not as they will have put a heap of "security" type stuff through it. But its more probably to do with the fact that the European style licenses aren't easy to photo copy or for that matter file.
So I suspect we are all suffering because of one or two pig headed individuals on the admin side of things who want nice tidy files, who don't want to buy a couple of printers, and do not like the idea of people cutting up official paper work.
The fact that all UK pilots have put up with the results is not a matter of any concern to them.
With the JAR license they started to discover that everyone and I mean everyone was cutting them up to fit in the holder.
This obviously annoyed someone with zero common sense and zero experience using the things live in a flying environment.
They then tried to get everyone to get a new license which was uncut stating that it was invalid and you would get grounded in Europe if you had an inspection. They even contacted some authorities in Europe and told them that it was invalid if cut.
This was basically ignored by the inspectors, the pilots and the examiners. The inspectors could see the reason why you have done it and the examiners had cut there own ones up as well.
There was a bit of a bun fight for 6-9 months and then someone stepped in and the matter was dropped.
It looks like the side that didn't like the cutting up of licenses have made sure this time that its in the documentation to not cut it up even though this goes against common sense as previously.
The printers that print the rest of Europe style licenses cost in the region of 600 euros. And the card that they use for the licenses will be more expensive than the CAA paper or maybe not as they will have put a heap of "security" type stuff through it. But its more probably to do with the fact that the European style licenses aren't easy to photo copy or for that matter file.
So I suspect we are all suffering because of one or two pig headed individuals on the admin side of things who want nice tidy files, who don't want to buy a couple of printers, and do not like the idea of people cutting up official paper work.
The fact that all UK pilots have put up with the results is not a matter of any concern to them.
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or that it doesn't have a picture on it.
I do know of a pilot that when realising they had a SAFA check they legged it across the apron to a company plane took there mates license and legged it back. Got through the inspection then returned it afterwards.
No findings, plane was released to go flying and everyone was none the wiser apart from the Captain who was none to chuffed.
I do know of a pilot that when realising they had a SAFA check they legged it across the apron to a company plane took there mates license and legged it back. Got through the inspection then returned it afterwards.
No findings, plane was released to go flying and everyone was none the wiser apart from the Captain who was none to chuffed.
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cut up licence or not?
If i got pulled over by the police (in uk) and they asked for my licence (which i ripped up and burnt for example) i would still be a licensed driver because my records are held on file at the dvla.
So what is the licence? A piece of paper or a qualification held on file for an individual?
If its just a piece of paper then I'm sure people can just make their own and not bother taking a test at all!
Silly tit for tat rubbish.
Still not sure if i should bother asking for another.
Db6 made my morning when i read that hahaha
Why number the pages and make them the size to fit the folder then invalidate it when people cut it to slot the pages in numerical order in it???
If it should be one document then why do this? Just keep it numberless or stick a note in to say"Do not cut"
So what is the licence? A piece of paper or a qualification held on file for an individual?
If its just a piece of paper then I'm sure people can just make their own and not bother taking a test at all!
Silly tit for tat rubbish.
Still not sure if i should bother asking for another.
Db6 made my morning when i read that hahaha
Why number the pages and make them the size to fit the folder then invalidate it when people cut it to slot the pages in numerical order in it???
If it should be one document then why do this? Just keep it numberless or stick a note in to say"Do not cut"
Last edited by Pilot.Lyons; 4th Oct 2013 at 14:43.
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As an afterthought, If I did lose my licence down the back of the sofa or other unknown places, and not bothered or had time to get a replacement, am I now grounded and could be prosecuted for flying without a licence if pulled? Or if having cut it up into bits and found I now need a new one having read all this, am I grounded until the post brings me new?
PS: Come on CAA, I know you read all this, stick your heads above the parapet and answer this for once............
PS: Come on CAA, I know you read all this, stick your heads above the parapet and answer this for once............
Last edited by PA28181; 4th Oct 2013 at 15:22.
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I did wonder when my EASA license arrived whether or not it should be cut up. I decided to check before getting out the scissors. It doesn't seem to make sense to have it folded up into a single plastic sleeve when there are so many sleeves. To examine any of the details on it the license first has to be footered out of the sleeve and unfolded.
Seriously though, why not just make it like a DVLA photocard license on the front page with subsequent sleeves for ratings and whatnot? It'd look neater and deliver the information in a more logical way. When I showed my family my EASA license they were quite underwhelmed at how photoshopped it all seemed to look.
Anyway, it's not the end of the world. Just wish a bit of sense could prevail.
Seriously though, why not just make it like a DVLA photocard license on the front page with subsequent sleeves for ratings and whatnot? It'd look neater and deliver the information in a more logical way. When I showed my family my EASA license they were quite underwhelmed at how photoshopped it all seemed to look.
Anyway, it's not the end of the world. Just wish a bit of sense could prevail.
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Well, I have cut mine up and I am quite unapologetic about it. If some pillock tries to ground me as a result, I'll take them to the Daily Muckraker for a bit of ridicule then invoke the CAA complaints procedure.
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you go for it mate.
But I reckon your up against some auld coffin dodger of a civil servant.
And your completely right the only way to deal with it is to say sod off take me to court.
As a pro pilot we can't take the risk as there are huge insurance implications but if you do take it that far I will chip in to your legal fees.
But I reckon your up against some auld coffin dodger of a civil servant.
And your completely right the only way to deal with it is to say sod off take me to court.
As a pro pilot we can't take the risk as there are huge insurance implications but if you do take it that far I will chip in to your legal fees.
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cut up licence or not?
For ppl etc there shouldn't be an insurance issue because the pilot is still licensed.
Whether it is in his pocket or in the bin surely the person still has a licence in the eyes of the law??
This rule is bloody pathetic.
Again if your driving licence was shredded and you had an accident the insurance company will request a copy, if you cant find it then they will either ask you to get a new one and forward it or check with dvla. It CANNOT render the vehicle uninsured.
I have never dealt with aviation insurance but it does sound like it would turn out to be a war of words/rules as many things do.
Also if it is an easa licence why do some countries allow it to be cut/torn along perforated line and its still valid but ours is suddenly rendered invalid?
Whether it is in his pocket or in the bin surely the person still has a licence in the eyes of the law??
This rule is bloody pathetic.
Again if your driving licence was shredded and you had an accident the insurance company will request a copy, if you cant find it then they will either ask you to get a new one and forward it or check with dvla. It CANNOT render the vehicle uninsured.
I have never dealt with aviation insurance but it does sound like it would turn out to be a war of words/rules as many things do.
Also if it is an easa licence why do some countries allow it to be cut/torn along perforated line and its still valid but ours is suddenly rendered invalid?
Last edited by Pilot.Lyons; 5th Oct 2013 at 06:07.
A few years ago, Canada went the opposite way, from paper-licence documents (I had three - PPL, GPL and Medical) which conveneniently fitted into my wallet, to a stupid Aviation Document (mini-passport), which I have to carry separately, and is small enough to lose track of.
At least the new one has a picture and contains all the necessary documents in one place. At least, that is what I thought, until on a trip back to Canada, after a dual licence-validation flight at Edmonton Flying Club (nice place by the way), I was told I couldn't fly solo, because I didn't have my radio-licence.
That's not in the Aviation Document, because radio licences are not issued by TC but by IC (Industry Canada)!
Sir Humphrey strikes again.
At least the new one has a picture and contains all the necessary documents in one place. At least, that is what I thought, until on a trip back to Canada, after a dual licence-validation flight at Edmonton Flying Club (nice place by the way), I was told I couldn't fly solo, because I didn't have my radio-licence.
That's not in the Aviation Document, because radio licences are not issued by TC but by IC (Industry Canada)!
Sir Humphrey strikes again.
Last edited by India Four Two; 5th Oct 2013 at 06:24.
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Again if your driving licence was shredded and you had an accident the insurance company will request a copy, if you cant find it then they will either ask you to get a new one and forward it or check with dvla. It CANNOT render the vehicle uninsured.
If you have an incident while flying and you are not carrying a valid licence (ie one that is not defaced), then an insurance company could use that as an excuse to avoid paying out as the flight is technically not compliant with the law. Insurance companies are always on the look out for any way to avoid paying out, no matter how petty.
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The size of each page is 1/8th of a sheet if A4. However there us nothing that says cut into individual pages. That's just you trying to justify.
I love barrack room lawyers.
I love barrack room lawyers.
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Again if your driving licence was shredded and you had an accident the insurance company will request a copy, if you cant find it then they will either ask you to get a new one and forward it or check with dvla. It CANNOT render the vehicle uninsured.
If you have an incident while flying and you are not carrying a valid licence (ie one that is not defaced), then an insurance company could use that as an excuse to avoid paying out as the flight is technically not compliant with the law. Insurance companies are always on the look out for any way to avoid paying out, no matter how petty.
Doesn't help you fix your aircraft mind
I know that car insurers have that very same liability, regardless of what they say to the general public.
The licence DID NOT come with instructions not to cut (it is not defaced) all the clues hinted at cutting it would be the next thing to do given what has been said hundreds of times already.
Why should the uk be any different? Again why make the folders 1/8 of an a4 sheet? Is it a deliberate way of catching people out to get more money from duplicate copies being ordered? If so then a copy is as good as cut one surely?
The rules are what the rules are, I'm not disputing that.
What i am peeved about is the fact that i have been set up to fail and surely thats not right is it?
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Is that justification or me asking for a common sense answer?
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Theres nothing in it that says dont (subject to my previous post) - Common sense says DO, as demonstrated by the huge numbers of people who have divided up and sequenced the pages, just as we always did (Plus any sensible interpretation of EASAs clause - a page doesnt become a page until it is an individual sheet - Left uncut, its just a box on a page) - I have no doubt any lawyer, barrack room or otherwise, would confirm that dividing the pages is utterly defensible, sensible and fully in accordance with the governing EU/EASA regulation. Infact they would probably go so far as to say that CAAs daft instruction, is in contravention of EASAs regulation, and that any licence left uncut is invalid.