Plane crash Caernarfon
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That is a valid point regarding placement of wind turbines or other obstructions in an airfield environment! I doubt it was a factor here but with the attitude especially with those horrendous wind turbines money and profits rule over safety!
With the huge profits they generate to landowners the placement of those awful wind turbines should be resisted anywhere near or on the flight paths to airfields!
Often some airfields have natural obstacles and it is up to the pilot to be familiar as well as maintaining the correct speeds and profile for the given conditions!
Above all keep the thing flying even into a hazardous landing area!
Pace
With the huge profits they generate to landowners the placement of those awful wind turbines should be resisted anywhere near or on the flight paths to airfields!
Often some airfields have natural obstacles and it is up to the pilot to be familiar as well as maintaining the correct speeds and profile for the given conditions!
Above all keep the thing flying even into a hazardous landing area!
Pace
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Wind turbine
I think it unlikely too, and yet there is a nagging doubt at the back of my mind.
From the CAA document I referenced previously
"It is recognised that aircraft wake vortices can be hazardous to other aircraft, and that
wind turbines produce wakes of similar, but not identical, characteristics to aircraft.
Although there are independent bodies of knowledge for both of the above, currently,
there is no known method of linking the two. Published research shows
measurements at 16 rotor diameters downstream of the wind turbine indicating that
turbulence effects are still noticeable"
From the CAA document I referenced previously
"It is recognised that aircraft wake vortices can be hazardous to other aircraft, and that
wind turbines produce wakes of similar, but not identical, characteristics to aircraft.
Although there are independent bodies of knowledge for both of the above, currently,
there is no known method of linking the two. Published research shows
measurements at 16 rotor diameters downstream of the wind turbine indicating that
turbulence effects are still noticeable"
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*'Anybody throw some light upon this? Are there any AAIB investigators reading PPRuNe who could comment?"*
It is known that past contributors to this forum are known to the AAIB, some, very well connected. It is also known that they still read the posts here.
In answer to your question, my guess is that the AAIB have been alerted to this thread, if the are not already aware of it.
It is known that past contributors to this forum are known to the AAIB, some, very well connected. It is also known that they still read the posts here.
In answer to your question, my guess is that the AAIB have been alerted to this thread, if the are not already aware of it.
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I doubt the busy folks at the AAIB would use this as a source as they would spend a lifetime parsing thru a mountain of **** to get anything worthwhile if at all. I assume they are well aware the primary skills and training/professions of the vast majority on here are totally unrelated to flying, I’d be kind of concerned if they looked to this forum for help in their investigation into this or any incident. That would be like requesting David Hasselholf’s judgment on an individual’s singing and acting capabilities, or dare I say it, seeking guidance on iceberg avoidance from the captain of the Titanic. Let’s face it, apart from extremely rare breed on here (that you can tell by their posts involving advanced scientific theories and formulas that go way over my wee heed) who are no doubt the Formula 1 drivers of aviation knowledge the rest of us are rank amateur weekend stock car drivers when it comes to aviation
Last edited by Shaggy Sheep Driver; 22nd May 2013 at 18:16.
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SSD
How serious an incident was it? This one obviously involves a fatality, and my experience of the AAIB is that they follow everything up a lot more thoroughly when someone has lost their life.
If the incident you have experience of wasn't quite so serious, they may just take the statements they receive and publish without much further investigation. If it did involve a fatality or serious injury, then obviously it's a pretty poor show if the AAIB didn't investigate further when you raised concerns.
The impression I got, after reading the report and subsequently speaking to the inspector in order to express my complaint, is AAIB were pushed for resources and didn't check some stuff fed to them by the accident pilot (stuff the group had already seen from the accident pilot's legal advisors and which we had dismissed as a desperate attempt by them to reduce their client's uninsured losses resulting from the accident).
If the incident you have experience of wasn't quite so serious, they may just take the statements they receive and publish without much further investigation. If it did involve a fatality or serious injury, then obviously it's a pretty poor show if the AAIB didn't investigate further when you raised concerns.
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Well, it is absolutely wonderful the explanations and excuses that pilots provide the AAIB and the airmiss folks. I have seen with my own little eyes, plus about six or seven other experienced observers, somebody making an abosolute bollocks of an approach, one ended up writing off his Archer by landing in poor viz, downwind, and stuffing it into our hedge. He blamed the prang on not receiving any information on conditions on the radio - which is NEVER MANNNED! As he kept his aircraft on our site and his wife was waiting for him in his car, he was certainly aware that there was NO RADIO SERVICE OF ANY KIND. And yet these excuses were included in the report.
Another occasion a helicopter lifted right up out of somebody's garden into the approach path of an early solo glider, which had no radio. Many gliders have no radio. We see and avoid. He explaned likewise that as he had called and received no answer, he assumed there was no active flying.... he had talked to somebody the day before who answered the clubhouse phone, and that, he assumed, gave him carte blanch....could have been the cleaning lad answering the phone, we certainly were unaware of any impending traffic.
The airmiss investigation report gave credit to the helicopter pilot's account of the incident. I suppose he expected the glider on approach to give way!
Another occasion a helicopter lifted right up out of somebody's garden into the approach path of an early solo glider, which had no radio. Many gliders have no radio. We see and avoid. He explaned likewise that as he had called and received no answer, he assumed there was no active flying.... he had talked to somebody the day before who answered the clubhouse phone, and that, he assumed, gave him carte blanch....could have been the cleaning lad answering the phone, we certainly were unaware of any impending traffic.
The airmiss investigation report gave credit to the helicopter pilot's account of the incident. I suppose he expected the glider on approach to give way!
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Relatively minor incident, if expensive for the pilot concerned. However, sloppy technique is sloppy technique and indicates flaws in basic methods of working.
I don't buy it that a flawed organisation would magically loose all those flaws for a more serious incident.
I don't buy it that a flawed organisation would magically loose all those flaws for a more serious incident.
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AAIB and GA
Resources are limited at the AAIB, however I have consistently been impressed by the depth and completeness of their investigations into fatal GA accidents (fixed and rotor-wing). In all fatal accidents, there will normally be a Coroner's Inquest, at which the AAIB will be called to give evidence. That is always a good opportunity to test the thoroughness of the AAIB report.
As for non fatal accidents which do not result in some form of legal scrutiny.....
From personal working relations with the AAIB (and as a PPL H), I have never detected a commercial/mil bias, or condescending attitude to GA pilots.
As for non fatal accidents which do not result in some form of legal scrutiny.....
From personal working relations with the AAIB (and as a PPL H), I have never detected a commercial/mil bias, or condescending attitude to GA pilots.
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Mary,
I remember that crash well, but it was a Cessna not a Archer...
This landing did not go well..... | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
The report did make me laugh....
I remember that crash well, but it was a Cessna not a Archer...
This landing did not go well..... | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
The report did make me laugh....
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If you want an example of just how badly the AAIB can screw up have a look at this;
https://sites.google.com/site/gstyxstory/
I have been on the periphery of two investigations and am very skeptical re the AAIB.
Rod1
https://sites.google.com/site/gstyxstory/
I have been on the periphery of two investigations and am very skeptical re the AAIB.
Rod1
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I was tempted to post the styx story. Like any organisation the AAIB does good work and 'less good'. There will be highly competent people and those 'much less gifted'.
For GA incidents, in the general scheme of things there are considerably less important than CAT, so where do you put the really good people? That frankly is simple good sense, so many of the impassioned pleas "wait for the AAIB report" will mean the result may not be that impressive. Especially for those accidents where the only commentry comes from the pilot and given human nature they are unlikely to 'fess up to gross incompetance!
In this case, from the pictures and comment, it seems to hardly need detailed investigation, clipping trees on the approach should be something that simply does not occur during VFR flying. So that leads to a pretty obvious answer - whether the engine was running or not I'm afraid.
For GA incidents, in the general scheme of things there are considerably less important than CAT, so where do you put the really good people? That frankly is simple good sense, so many of the impassioned pleas "wait for the AAIB report" will mean the result may not be that impressive. Especially for those accidents where the only commentry comes from the pilot and given human nature they are unlikely to 'fess up to gross incompetance!
In this case, from the pictures and comment, it seems to hardly need detailed investigation, clipping trees on the approach should be something that simply does not occur during VFR flying. So that leads to a pretty obvious answer - whether the engine was running or not I'm afraid.
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I have my own views on what happened, however something to bear in mind is carb icing if this ac has a carb! Read the books, low power setting, ac gets low on approach, pilot opens throttle to correct, cough cough, too late.
Just another point to consider.
Just another point to consider.
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In this case, from the pictures and comment, it seems to hardly need detailed investigation, clipping trees on the approach should be something that simply does not occur during VFR flying. So that leads to a pretty obvious answer - whether the engine was running or not I'm afraid.
The logical conclusion of your argument seems to be that no properly flown aeroplane should crash, therefore all accidents are due to pilot error, isn't it?
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The logical conclusion of your argument seems to be that no properly flown aeroplane should crash, therefore all accidents are due to pilot error, isn't it?
The AAIB will start at the very beginning, ruling out things like fuel contamination and pilot incapacitation early on, then look at the conditions on the day and draw their own conclusions. Obviously we don't have all that information to hand, and are purely speculating (which I again emphasise is a good thing as it may just make someone take something on board to stop an accident in the future).
History does rather show that accidents happen when lots of things line up rather than one sole cause, perhaps this scenario could be unfamiliar with the displaced threshold, sun in his eyes, grandson excitedly distracting him from the back seat, who knows maybe carb ice and an engine failure as well.
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Thanks, Tupperware, for the correction. Just shows how memory at my age plays funny tricks....that is definitely the definitive photo of that arrival....how appropriate the registration of the Cessna, if you leave off the last letter.....
But the pilot's report was a bit economical....the AAIB doesn't always spend much effort in following up non fatal accidents, that's for sure.
Occasionally one can read between the lines that the investigators are not always convinced by the pilot's narrative of events. I remember reading about a Cirrus that pulled his chute not far from our airfield....he apparently was concentrating on pushing buttons inside the cockpit when he looked up and all he could see was green.....
But the pilot's report was a bit economical....the AAIB doesn't always spend much effort in following up non fatal accidents, that's for sure.
Occasionally one can read between the lines that the investigators are not always convinced by the pilot's narrative of events. I remember reading about a Cirrus that pulled his chute not far from our airfield....he apparently was concentrating on pushing buttons inside the cockpit when he looked up and all he could see was green.....
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According to what the pilot of GBAMJ told the AAIB, on 14 June 1997, he was returning from France, stopped at Lydd mid-day to refuel, and only at that time got the weather from Birmingham which he believed would favour the Easterly run at Shenington. He reports the cloudbase at 1,500, which was probably the height above sea level at Lydd. Shenington is 800 feet AMSL. And the cloud on his approach was even lower, as the wind had changed to a westerly, and the orographic had formed on the ridge.
We couldn't believe what we were seeing from the clubhouse; we had stopped flying an hour before because of the crap weather. And here he appears out of the mist, approaching downwind! surely he"ll go round...he cannot be serious...he needs to go round now! he touched down well past the midpoint, and just kept rolling, not only hitting the boundary hedge, but crunching right through it to the mini car park....
So what can we learn from his AAIB statement? not a lot! too bad they didn't interview the witnesses.
He was probably too tired to think straight, and his wife was waiting for him at Shenington with their car....
As other posters have said on this thread, there are usually several elements that lead to an accident. Certainly the displaced threshold could have been one. I hope the AAIB will in this case interview the witnesses.
We couldn't believe what we were seeing from the clubhouse; we had stopped flying an hour before because of the crap weather. And here he appears out of the mist, approaching downwind! surely he"ll go round...he cannot be serious...he needs to go round now! he touched down well past the midpoint, and just kept rolling, not only hitting the boundary hedge, but crunching right through it to the mini car park....
So what can we learn from his AAIB statement? not a lot! too bad they didn't interview the witnesses.
He was probably too tired to think straight, and his wife was waiting for him at Shenington with their car....
As other posters have said on this thread, there are usually several elements that lead to an accident. Certainly the displaced threshold could have been one. I hope the AAIB will in this case interview the witnesses.
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I am sure a lot of these accidents occur as you say by mistakes leading to mistakes and eventually pilot overload.
I right seated a pilot in a twin who got so stressed out on an aborted approach that when it was obvious we were not breaking out and the command go around was given just pulled the nose up, no power, no gear retraction, no flap retraction yet the pilot had carried out missed approaches in training.
The overloaded mind just freezes and pilots do strange things.
Pace
I right seated a pilot in a twin who got so stressed out on an aborted approach that when it was obvious we were not breaking out and the command go around was given just pulled the nose up, no power, no gear retraction, no flap retraction yet the pilot had carried out missed approaches in training.
The overloaded mind just freezes and pilots do strange things.
Pace