Plane crash Caernarfon
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Dont wait for the accident report! Speculate over and over again, however bear in mind that NOTHING is fact. Nobody is right or wrong until the report is published.
Why not have "scenario" threads, where a simulated accident is announced and pilots can guess the cause. After a couple of days we could publish the solution and pilots can see how well they did. ANY discussion about an accident that can get one single pilot to realise his errors has to be valuable.
Moderators, how about giving this a try?
Why not have "scenario" threads, where a simulated accident is announced and pilots can guess the cause. After a couple of days we could publish the solution and pilots can see how well they did. ANY discussion about an accident that can get one single pilot to realise his errors has to be valuable.
Moderators, how about giving this a try?
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Why not have "scenario" threads, where a simulated accident is announced and pilots can guess the cause. After a couple of days we could publish the solution and pilots can see how well they did. ANY discussion about an accident that can get one single pilot to realise his errors has to be valuable.
Moderators, how about giving this a try?
Moderators, how about giving this a try?
I find discussing real incidents far more valuable though, as it really shows how even very experienced pilots can have a lapse in concentration, or complacency or whatever it is, and we must all look for it in our own flying lest we are the next one being discussed.
The displaced threshold may well have played it's part in this particular incident. It can completely alter the approach aspect, perhaps if the sun was in his eyes he would not have seen the arrows painted on the runway, perhaps it was his first visit, or perhaps he had flown there so many times he was complacent of the displaced threshold. It's easy to ignore a displaced threshold if you do not see the reason for it being there, Exeter runway 08 being a good example where a lot of pilots disregard it and land at the beginning of the runway as they just can't see why it's displaced.
Last edited by RTN11; 21st May 2013 at 19:34.
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Those of us who buzz round the same old circuits on the same old airstrips keep fairly well up to date with the local hazards.....I used to ignore the displaced threshold at Enstone, knowing why they painted it in the first place, to lure pilots from London Airport (Oxford) !!! into doing some training at Enstone. Being familiar with the local scenery, there were no hazards on approach to merit a displaced threshold.
There were also some territorial disputes there that ended up with wire fences strung along the perimeter that caught the unwary. If you flew in every week or so for fuel, and kept abreast of the latest hazards, not a problem.
The main hazard on approach to one of our runways at Shenington for the unwary visitor is the electric fence occasionally erected at the end of the runway to keep in the cows....probably not mentioned in Pooleys....and quite invisible until too late....
I also would not wait for any AAIB report before making a contribution to a reasoned debate on any accident.....to my certain knowlege the AAIB doesn't always get it right even when eventually they publish. Certainly the airmiss reports are not to be relied upon. The new format that emphasises the two classes of report, one provided by the pilots involved as compared to the more authoritative one that has been properly investigated, is an improvement.
There were also some territorial disputes there that ended up with wire fences strung along the perimeter that caught the unwary. If you flew in every week or so for fuel, and kept abreast of the latest hazards, not a problem.
The main hazard on approach to one of our runways at Shenington for the unwary visitor is the electric fence occasionally erected at the end of the runway to keep in the cows....probably not mentioned in Pooleys....and quite invisible until too late....
I also would not wait for any AAIB report before making a contribution to a reasoned debate on any accident.....to my certain knowlege the AAIB doesn't always get it right even when eventually they publish. Certainly the airmiss reports are not to be relied upon. The new format that emphasises the two classes of report, one provided by the pilots involved as compared to the more authoritative one that has been properly investigated, is an improvement.
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personally don't usually partake in accident threads because of my lack of experience (104 hours), but the various suggestions of causes certainly makes me think and does affect how i fly.
Doing my IMC has proved invaluable, only last week fresh in the saddle again did I find malfunctioning instruments in mostly crap weather. All worked out well because im confident.
visit planned for the said airfield in the near future.
Very sad accident.
From what was said earlier in the thread about age of the aircraft, used to fly a 1970 pa28 140 and it was sweet as a nut, bar the shafted adf. A little underpowered maybe but no issue at all.
Dan
Doing my IMC has proved invaluable, only last week fresh in the saddle again did I find malfunctioning instruments in mostly crap weather. All worked out well because im confident.
visit planned for the said airfield in the near future.
Very sad accident.
From what was said earlier in the thread about age of the aircraft, used to fly a 1970 pa28 140 and it was sweet as a nut, bar the shafted adf. A little underpowered maybe but no issue at all.
Dan
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I agree these things should be discussed as long as no 'this was the cause' statements are made, and those stridently demanding that everyone else say nowt until AAIB report time should wind their necks in.
And don't forget, the AAIB is not the paragon of disinterest (that's disinterest, not uninterest; something quite different) that it once perhaps was. Some years ago I was close to one of their investigations (it involved a pilot in our group - not me - in our shareoplane and I was last to fly it before the accident pilot). I was deeply unimpressed with some aspects of the report and complained to the investigor. He agreed I had a valid point, apologised, but would not change the report.
it ain't neccessarily so
it ain't neccessarily so
the the things that you're liable
to read in the AAIB bible
it ain't neccessarily so.....
And don't forget, the AAIB is not the paragon of disinterest (that's disinterest, not uninterest; something quite different) that it once perhaps was. Some years ago I was close to one of their investigations (it involved a pilot in our group - not me - in our shareoplane and I was last to fly it before the accident pilot). I was deeply unimpressed with some aspects of the report and complained to the investigor. He agreed I had a valid point, apologised, but would not change the report.
it ain't neccessarily so
it ain't neccessarily so
the the things that you're liable
to read in the AAIB bible
it ain't neccessarily so.....
Last edited by Shaggy Sheep Driver; 21st May 2013 at 21:50.
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Canaerfon
Reason for crash solved.... Quote Walesonline ...Owner of Fly Blackpool aviation club, Robert Murgatroyd, said: “We believe it’s pilot error as the aircraft is mechanically sound.” hmmmmm !!!!
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“We believe it’s pilot error as the aircraft is mechanically sound.” hmmmmm !!!!
In correct handling of those failures could lead to a crash which could also be classified as pilot error
Pace
If an engine were to fail and the aircraft crash landed this would be a mechanical failure. However, if an engine were to fail and the pilot subsequently stalled on final approach and crashed, this would be pilot error.
Good isn't it!
Good isn't it!
Last edited by Jonty; 22nd May 2013 at 09:15.
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History tells us that it is likely to be a combination of smaller problems that lead to the crash?
From the scraps of information known he got low on the approach. Why and how he got there, and maybe why he could not correct the situation is anyone's guess at this stage.
Straightforward pilot error, distraction, mis-interpretation of the displaced threshold, carb ice, mis-management of fuel, problems when selecting flaps, some sort of pilot incapacitation, engine issues etc etc the list is long.
From the scraps of information known he got low on the approach. Why and how he got there, and maybe why he could not correct the situation is anyone's guess at this stage.
Straightforward pilot error, distraction, mis-interpretation of the displaced threshold, carb ice, mis-management of fuel, problems when selecting flaps, some sort of pilot incapacitation, engine issues etc etc the list is long.
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Hi.. I remember many years ago an airplane put it's landing gear through the roofs of some houses on the approach to the old RW24 at Manchester.
Despite the obvious AAIB report, the houses are still there complete with repaired roofs.
I wonder if these Caernarfon trees will have a visit from a man with a chain-saw soon. If they were not there, or 10 foot lower, this accident would most likely not have happened.
Small trees have a tendency of growing into big trees, if left unattended.
Whether the turbines will stand the test of time, and the AAIB report, remains to be seen.
Despite the obvious AAIB report, the houses are still there complete with repaired roofs.
I wonder if these Caernarfon trees will have a visit from a man with a chain-saw soon. If they were not there, or 10 foot lower, this accident would most likely not have happened.
Small trees have a tendency of growing into big trees, if left unattended.
Whether the turbines will stand the test of time, and the AAIB report, remains to be seen.
Last edited by phiggsbroadband; 22nd May 2013 at 10:54.
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AAIB - Who do they recruit?
Hi Guys,
I am interested in Shaggy Sheep's last comment about being unimpressed by the accuracy/impartiality of an AAIB investigation.
As we all know, the AAIB has the duty to investigate all flying accidents, whether the aircraft involved has been a B747 or a Curry Wot.
My guess is that the people the AAIB would tend to recruit as investigators will mostly, if not all, have come from a background of 'professional' flying, such as the military or CAT.
Perhaps few of them will also be, or have been, ordinary flying club members and thus acquainted with private pilots or our kind of flying.
In my experience, 'professional' pilots not uncommonly regard the private pilot as a not very competent dabbler with minimal training whose skills are always going to be suspect.
If this attitude was to permeate the thinking of an AAIB investigation into a GA accident, it might have unfortunate consequences for the outcome of the investigation.
'Anybody throw some light upon this? Are there any AAIB investigators reading Pprune who could comment?
Regards,
BP.
I am interested in Shaggy Sheep's last comment about being unimpressed by the accuracy/impartiality of an AAIB investigation.
As we all know, the AAIB has the duty to investigate all flying accidents, whether the aircraft involved has been a B747 or a Curry Wot.
My guess is that the people the AAIB would tend to recruit as investigators will mostly, if not all, have come from a background of 'professional' flying, such as the military or CAT.
Perhaps few of them will also be, or have been, ordinary flying club members and thus acquainted with private pilots or our kind of flying.
In my experience, 'professional' pilots not uncommonly regard the private pilot as a not very competent dabbler with minimal training whose skills are always going to be suspect.
If this attitude was to permeate the thinking of an AAIB investigation into a GA accident, it might have unfortunate consequences for the outcome of the investigation.
'Anybody throw some light upon this? Are there any AAIB investigators reading Pprune who could comment?
Regards,
BP.
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jonty
Yes agreed the failure would contribute to the reasons why the pilot lost control but its the pilot who looses control unless of course the failure makes the aircraft unflyable.
An engine failure over extensive dense forestation would inevitably lead to a crash in trees a good pilot would maintain minimum flying speed into the trees and turn into wind another pilot may stall /spin into the trees.
Both could be killed but the good pilot would have a better chance of survival.
An even better pilot would not fly over dense extensive forestation in a single piston at an altitude where he could not glide clear into open ground
Pace
Yes agreed the failure would contribute to the reasons why the pilot lost control but its the pilot who looses control unless of course the failure makes the aircraft unflyable.
An engine failure over extensive dense forestation would inevitably lead to a crash in trees a good pilot would maintain minimum flying speed into the trees and turn into wind another pilot may stall /spin into the trees.
Both could be killed but the good pilot would have a better chance of survival.
An even better pilot would not fly over dense extensive forestation in a single piston at an altitude where he could not glide clear into open ground
Pace
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BroomstickPilot Reference to your final sentence.
*'Anybody throw some light upon this? Are there any AAIB investigators reading Pprune who could comment?"*
It is known that past contributors to this forum are known to the AAIB, some, very well connected. It is also known that they still read the posts here.
In answer to your question, my guess is that the AAIB have been alerted to this thread, if the are not already aware of it.
*'Anybody throw some light upon this? Are there any AAIB investigators reading Pprune who could comment?"*
It is known that past contributors to this forum are known to the AAIB, some, very well connected. It is also known that they still read the posts here.
In answer to your question, my guess is that the AAIB have been alerted to this thread, if the are not already aware of it.
Last edited by Jetblu; 22nd May 2013 at 10:25.
The operator of Ashcroft airfield appears to be using this tragic accident to make an unrelated point.
http://www.ashcroftair.co.uk/images/..._may_2013_.jpg
I think that is disgraceful.
http://www.ashcroftair.co.uk/images/..._may_2013_.jpg
I think that is disgraceful.
Hi.. I remember many years ago an airplane put it's landing gear through the roofs of some houses on the approach to the old RW24 at Manchester.
Despite the obvious AAIB report, the houses are still there complete with repaired roofs.
Despite the obvious AAIB report, the houses are still there complete with repaired roofs.
http://="http://aviation-safety.net/...?id=19570314-0
Back to the main debate...
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hoodie, I absolutely agree. There seems to be a lot of bad blood between this guy and LAC. I've no idea what it's about, but to cite this tragedy in the way he has is absolutely appalling.
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I am interested in Shaggy Sheep's last comment about being unimpressed by the accuracy/impartiality of an AAIB investigation.
As we all know, the AAIB has the duty to investigate all flying accidents, whether the aircraft involved has been a B747 or a Curry Wot.
My guess is that the people the AAIB would tend to recruit as investigators will mostly, if not all, have come from a background of 'professional' flying, such as the military or CAT.
Perhaps few of them will also be, or have been, ordinary flying club members and thus acquainted with private pilots or our kind of flying.
In my experience, 'professional' pilots not uncommonly regard the private pilot as a not very competent dabbler with minimal training whose skills are always going to be suspect.
If this attitude was to permeate the thinking of an AAIB investigation into a GA accident, it might have unfortunate consequences for the outcome of the investigation.
As we all know, the AAIB has the duty to investigate all flying accidents, whether the aircraft involved has been a B747 or a Curry Wot.
My guess is that the people the AAIB would tend to recruit as investigators will mostly, if not all, have come from a background of 'professional' flying, such as the military or CAT.
Perhaps few of them will also be, or have been, ordinary flying club members and thus acquainted with private pilots or our kind of flying.
In my experience, 'professional' pilots not uncommonly regard the private pilot as a not very competent dabbler with minimal training whose skills are always going to be suspect.
If this attitude was to permeate the thinking of an AAIB investigation into a GA accident, it might have unfortunate consequences for the outcome of the investigation.
AAIB's hitherto excellent reputation sank beyond trace in my estimation following that episode. In hindsight, and since the comments in the report pointed a passing finger at me, the previous pilot to fly the aerolplane, I shouldn't have let the matter drop, and should have followed my phone call up with a written complaint and taken it further than that if need be. But I was very busy at the time and life's too short. It's something I still regret not doing, however, especially as AAIB had not contacted me at all to check the facts.
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I hope the AAIB do a thorough investigation that excludes (or otherwise) the possibility that the wind turbines situated on the airfield could in any way have contributed to the accident through wind shear, turbulence, visual distraction or by any other mechanism.