New EASA licence holder / Cutting up EASA PPL?
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New EASA licence holder / Cutting up EASA PPL?
Hello,
I finally received my EASA PPL(A) today, 98 days after the CAA received my application!
One thing I noticed is that the license is split into a number of pages. There are also a generous number of plastic sleeves in the wallet. Common sense would suggest that the license is meant to be cut up with a page in each sleeve.
However, there was no letter in the package suggesting that this could be done (just a note reminding me of the £191 they relieved me of, as if it didn't sting enough already
), and I'm not in any rush to tear up a document I've gone through so much hassle of obtaining. In addition, CAP804 also states that it is not permitted (page 45).
I remember seeing this debated here at length, and IIRC one explanation suggested for this was that the license reference was not printed on all pages. However, the license number and date of issue appear on all the pages - could it be that this is a new change and the previous advice is outdated?
I'll be sending off an email to the CAA to get written confirmation before I do anything, but considering their typical response times I figured I'd ask here in the mean time to see what people think.
Odai.
I finally received my EASA PPL(A) today, 98 days after the CAA received my application!
One thing I noticed is that the license is split into a number of pages. There are also a generous number of plastic sleeves in the wallet. Common sense would suggest that the license is meant to be cut up with a page in each sleeve.
However, there was no letter in the package suggesting that this could be done (just a note reminding me of the £191 they relieved me of, as if it didn't sting enough already
), and I'm not in any rush to tear up a document I've gone through so much hassle of obtaining. In addition, CAP804 also states that it is not permitted (page 45). I remember seeing this debated here at length, and IIRC one explanation suggested for this was that the license reference was not printed on all pages. However, the license number and date of issue appear on all the pages - could it be that this is a new change and the previous advice is outdated?
I'll be sending off an email to the CAA to get written confirmation before I do anything, but considering their typical response times I figured I'd ask here in the mean time to see what people think.
Odai.
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See this thread:
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...gatwick-5.html
Others have asked and been told that theirs is null and void if cut up.
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...gatwick-5.html
Others have asked and been told that theirs is null and void if cut up.
EASA is committed to your safety.
Cutting up a licence without a valid scissor rating* would pose an unacceptable risk.
* To retain scissor currency, you must have cut up 3 licences within the preceding 90 days without suffering a paper cut.
Cutting up a licence without a valid scissor rating* would pose an unacceptable risk.
* To retain scissor currency, you must have cut up 3 licences within the preceding 90 days without suffering a paper cut.
Last edited by Mariner9; 16th May 2013 at 15:50.
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you must have cut up 3 licences within the preceding 90 days without suffering a paper cut.
... whoops! No you are right, in the new EASA world you have to "carry out" the cuts, so you will have to be in charge of the scissors too
Last edited by 24Carrot; 16th May 2013 at 16:22.
The Irish, as only they could, came up with a simple solution - they issue 8 individual 2 page sections which can be folded back-to-back and put into the individual pockets of that silly little wallet.
Austria and (I think) Switzerland have decided to retain the previous licence size.
Austria and (I think) Switzerland have decided to retain the previous licence size.
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So, despite all the efforts of EASA, each country does things their own way anyway, with every licence looking different.
So even the things that seem fairly simple (and perhaps useful) to standardise haven't been...
Can someone remind me what benefits EASA have brought to this process again?
So even the things that seem fairly simple (and perhaps useful) to standardise haven't been...
Can someone remind me what benefits EASA have brought to this process again?
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Riverock83, that was indeed the thread I was referring to.
Although I can't find the post, I think it was mentioned somewhere that the reason cutting up the license was unacceptable was that not all pages were annotated with the license reference.
My license does have this information on every page, so I was wondering if it maybe changed since then?
I've sent off an email to fclweb but I doubt I'll hear back from them for a long while yet. The last time I asked (on the phone) for typical response waiting times I was told to expect 39 working days.
What on Earth do the CAA suggest the empty sleeves are for if not for multiple pages of the license?
Although I can't find the post, I think it was mentioned somewhere that the reason cutting up the license was unacceptable was that not all pages were annotated with the license reference.
My license does have this information on every page, so I was wondering if it maybe changed since then?
I've sent off an email to fclweb but I doubt I'll hear back from them for a long while yet. The last time I asked (on the phone) for typical response waiting times I was told to expect 39 working days.
What on Earth do the CAA suggest the empty sleeves are for if not for multiple pages of the license?
Last edited by Odai; 16th May 2013 at 23:32.
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I didn't worry when I got mine. I cut it as required to fit the wallet. I thought that's what everybody did? There were no instructions to say you shouldn't cut it. Honestly if anyone ever wants to see it uncut, I can scan it into the computer and reprint it in a similarly poor quality. It's not like it's a one of a kind special issue with a hologram, water mark, magnetic strip, or chip.
Unsurprisingly many years later no one has ever even commented on the fact that I cut it to fit the wallet. I even cut the replacement pages. I may have even used a guillotine!
The CAA do keep an electronic record of the licence, so they do know if you have one, and if it's current (assuming they didn't lose the form).
Unsurprisingly many years later no one has ever even commented on the fact that I cut it to fit the wallet. I even cut the replacement pages. I may have even used a guillotine!
The CAA do keep an electronic record of the licence, so they do know if you have one, and if it's current (assuming they didn't lose the form).
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Cutting the new Part FCL licence invalidates it.
The CAA have issued specific instructions that state it must not be cut. It folds up to fit perfectly in one of the pockets. So does the medical. My examiner authority does the same along with the additional pages for it. The CAA also supply additional revalidation sheets that are the correct size to go in. By the time that lot goes in there is little room left. That's the reason there are so many empty pages. Think yourself lucky, most European countries issue the bit of paper in a single clear plastic pocket sized for the folded licence. At least the UK gave you one with room to expand.
It even fits perfectly my FAA Class 1 and Certificate.....
The CAA have issued specific instructions that state it must not be cut. It folds up to fit perfectly in one of the pockets. So does the medical. My examiner authority does the same along with the additional pages for it. The CAA also supply additional revalidation sheets that are the correct size to go in. By the time that lot goes in there is little room left. That's the reason there are so many empty pages. Think yourself lucky, most European countries issue the bit of paper in a single clear plastic pocket sized for the folded licence. At least the UK gave you one with room to expand.
It even fits perfectly my FAA Class 1 and Certificate.....
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You a lawyer now than Fuji?
I have posted exactly what was stated to me by the UK CAA in writing. The message comes from the Head of Policy. Cutting up a Part FCL licence invalidates it.
As they issue it then I would suspect that they are the expert on what makes it valid or not?
I have posted exactly what was stated to me by the UK CAA in writing. The message comes from the Head of Policy. Cutting up a Part FCL licence invalidates it.
As they issue it then I would suspect that they are the expert on what makes it valid or not?
In a court of law am sure you would still be deemed to be "licensed" notwithstanding that the licence itself has been cut up.
However the practical issue is some jobsworth such as an EASA inspector attempting to stop you from going flying!
You really could not dream this stuff up! What's next / an "approved" licence wallet?
However the practical issue is some jobsworth such as an EASA inspector attempting to stop you from going flying!
You really could not dream this stuff up! What's next / an "approved" licence wallet?
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I have posted exactly what was stated to me by the UK CAA in writing. The message comes from the Head of Policy. Cutting up a Part FCL licence invalidates it.
As they issue it then I would suspect that they are the expert on what makes it valid or not?
As they issue it then I would suspect that they are the expert on what makes it valid or not?
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I do love the barrack room lawyers.
I am not sure how complicated this needs to be. The authority that issues the licence have stated that if its cut up it is invalidated. That authority make its terms for you to exercise the privilege (not a right) perfectly clear. If you choose to violate those terms the authority has the right to withdraw the privilege.
In this case they have stated that the licence must not be cut up. This is an EASA wide agreement.
If you fly to another country and get ramp checked and are found to be in possession of a defaced licence (from being cut up as an example) then I would not want to be explaining that the Barack room lawyers told me it would be OK to cut up.......
But hey, it's your licence, you can do whatever you want with it. I will keep mine in one piece as required by he issuing authority and EASA.....
I am not sure how complicated this needs to be. The authority that issues the licence have stated that if its cut up it is invalidated. That authority make its terms for you to exercise the privilege (not a right) perfectly clear. If you choose to violate those terms the authority has the right to withdraw the privilege.
In this case they have stated that the licence must not be cut up. This is an EASA wide agreement.
If you fly to another country and get ramp checked and are found to be in possession of a defaced licence (from being cut up as an example) then I would not want to be explaining that the Barack room lawyers told me it would be OK to cut up.......
But hey, it's your licence, you can do whatever you want with it. I will keep mine in one piece as required by he issuing authority and EASA.....
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Cutting up the piece of paper would not invalidate your licenced status itsself, in the sense that you could apply to the CAA for a replacement piece of paper without having to take all the exams and tests again. But it invalidates the piece of paper as PROOF of your licenced status - which is what the piece of paper is for - so you would have no easy way to demonstrate your status and priviledges as a licenced pilot to a person in authority.
In other words, of course you shouldn't cut it up!
In other words, of course you shouldn't cut it up!
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Sheesh! Just play the jobsworth knobbers at their own game.
take a colour-L@ser copy and cut that up!
Let the buggers try to prove which one is the original!
Just had a similar issue with the Probate Registry, INSISTING I send a "Court Sealed" copy of a certificate.
I explained the original IS a photocopy (you can see the paper-edges of the original) and the print is glossy,BUT the rubber stamps from the Court are Matt, so they're probably REAL rubber-stamps. They accepted the argument this was how the Court sent it out.
I didn't tell them my L@ser copy exhibits similar characteristics
take a colour-L@ser copy and cut that up!
Let the buggers try to prove which one is the original!
Just had a similar issue with the Probate Registry, INSISTING I send a "Court Sealed" copy of a certificate.
I explained the original IS a photocopy (you can see the paper-edges of the original) and the print is glossy,BUT the rubber stamps from the Court are Matt, so they're probably REAL rubber-stamps. They accepted the argument this was how the Court sent it out.
I didn't tell them my L@ser copy exhibits similar characteristics
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Bose - it is an old fashion concept these days - it use to be called common sense.
Can you imagine the Court Case - the CAA are claiming the pilot was flying without a license, the judge asks whether he passed his test .. yes, whether the pass was recorded by the CAA .. yes, and whether a valid license had been issued .. yes, so you are seeking to prosecute the pilot because he divided his license into a few sheets to fit in his wallet .. yes - hmm, I don't think so - call me old fashion if you will.
Whether strictly the CAA had a case or not even they in a million years wouldn't prosecute that one and if it were combined with some more serious action the Court would disregard the transgression.
I am not recommending you do divide up the license, and it wasn't a criticism of your post Bose, nor that this isn't the official line, just a comment that we can take ourselves far to seriously. I can tell you if I divided up my license it wouldn't cause me one wink of lost sleep and I would very happily plead my case in Court.
I do of course understand you have to tow the official line.
Can you imagine the Court Case - the CAA are claiming the pilot was flying without a license, the judge asks whether he passed his test .. yes, whether the pass was recorded by the CAA .. yes, and whether a valid license had been issued .. yes, so you are seeking to prosecute the pilot because he divided his license into a few sheets to fit in his wallet .. yes - hmm, I don't think so - call me old fashion if you will.
Whether strictly the CAA had a case or not even they in a million years wouldn't prosecute that one and if it were combined with some more serious action the Court would disregard the transgression.I am not recommending you do divide up the license, and it wasn't a criticism of your post Bose, nor that this isn't the official line, just a comment that we can take ourselves far to seriously. I can tell you if I divided up my license it wouldn't cause me one wink of lost sleep and I would very happily plead my case in Court.
I do of course understand you have to tow the official line.
Last edited by Fuji Abound; 17th May 2013 at 10:36.
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A friend just photocopied his new license. and cut that up and place the copied pieces into all the folders. The original copy just folded up in the back folder.
Looks so much nicer...
TS
Looks so much nicer...
TS