Clarification please - joining the circuit
Joined: Oct 2007
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From: fort sheridan, il
stevelup...
I"ve been flying longer than you have been alive...your views are typically european and that is why your planes and aviation community suck.
so, go have some spotted dick and leave flying to real pilots.
I"ve been flying longer than you have been alive...your views are typically european and that is why your planes and aviation community suck.
so, go have some spotted dick and leave flying to real pilots.
Joined: May 2009
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From: HKG
And your views are typically American, very narrow minded and an unwillingness to accept that any way other than your own is any good.
Just because you have been flying for longer than he has been alive does not mean you are any good at it or that your opinions are more valid. In fact it shows from your previous post that you blurt out an answer that is wrong because you believe you know it all as your so experienced. When told what you wrote is wrong, instead of accepting the correction you attack the person who corrected you. Great personality trait for a pilot. I hope when an FO points out your doing something wrong you don't attack him, as how dare he correct someone with such experience as yours.
Just because you have been flying for longer than he has been alive does not mean you are any good at it or that your opinions are more valid. In fact it shows from your previous post that you blurt out an answer that is wrong because you believe you know it all as your so experienced. When told what you wrote is wrong, instead of accepting the correction you attack the person who corrected you. Great personality trait for a pilot. I hope when an FO points out your doing something wrong you don't attack him, as how dare he correct someone with such experience as yours.
Joined: Feb 2005
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From: UK
Sevenstrokeroll.
Bet these stupid english youngsters don't even know what a paradiddle is
Both of us, from each side of the pond, have national traits that seem queer to others. That doesn't make us stupid just different.
We all post things on here without thinking sometimes (q.v. my post a few back) but it's a sign of a real man when you can listen to another's differing opinion and be tolerant, also to admit when what you have said might have been inaccurate.
So cool it man, with due respect to your age, lets live in harmony and respect each other's opinions even if they do not coincide with our own.
Bet these stupid english youngsters don't even know what a paradiddle is
Both of us, from each side of the pond, have national traits that seem queer to others. That doesn't make us stupid just different.
We all post things on here without thinking sometimes (q.v. my post a few back) but it's a sign of a real man when you can listen to another's differing opinion and be tolerant, also to admit when what you have said might have been inaccurate.
So cool it man, with due respect to your age, lets live in harmony and respect each other's opinions even if they do not coincide with our own.
Joined: Oct 2007
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From: fort sheridan, il
I have a better idea. Let's take a look at the ideas and ways of all the posters.
The original poster had a fair question. He was truly puzzled why someone would encourage something that even his level of piloting skills and knowledge indicated were WRONG>
There were some suspicious things that my vast experience picked up on and I mentioned it in a semi humorous way to make sure IT STUCK in the original poster's mind.
And I get attacked. Well I can take it. And the other posters are right...age and experience don't make you a better pilot than someone else. But when you are a better pilot than someone else and you also have age and experience on your side that is quite a benefit . I'm sure even German and British pilots have seen the poster with the biplane in the tree speaking of bold pilots and old pilots and that there aren't any old bold pilots.
Back in prehistoric times I had warned a fine student, someone who spent time and money getting to be a fine pilot...someone who had pulled himself up from poverty to become a wealthy man how to stay safe. I warned him that some pilots would enter an uncontrolled airport traffic pattern (yes pattern, not circuit) in such a way as to increase the possibility of mid air collision. I also warned him about stall recovery when avoiding a collision.
Two weeks later he encountered someone entering the pattern incorrectly at a high elevation airport. Head on collision course on base leg, he correctly on left base, the intruder incorrectly on right base. He maneuvered and avoided collision and while intensely maneuvering he approached a stall but recovered safely and landed.
I don't play around when I fly. and when I hear stupid things I call em like I see em...even if they are in other countries.
and lets talk about the peanut gallery...sloppy joe and stevelup...yeah they love to talk. Oh imagine a flight instructor not in it for the money (puhleaze)I know flight instructors are not well paid, but any flight instructor who takes a shortcut is not teaching a student how to be safe and that costs more money in the long run.
and yes I'm an American. Remember us? We invented the airplane.
I don't like you stevelup...and I sure don't respect you and the same for sloppyjoe. And I do know all about CRM and making sure a F/O can speak to me about anything of concern to make the flight safer.
So many times people make up stuff to cover their own inadequate performance as a pilot. They comment as if I am someone they have actually flown with. But of course we never will fly together. My airline only hires very experienced pilots, not the cadet boys of the european squadrons.
We hire people who can fly and think, not just push buttons.
And dear funfly, yes I know all about paradiddles, flams, ratamacues, lesson no. 25's (which the brits call the rat-a -tap). But I disagree with you about peaceful coexistence.
The likes of stevelup and sloppyjoe are just fooling themselves. They are trying to make up for failures by ''talking big''.
I admire the brits for inventing radar, and the lion's share of the jet engine . And especially for the few!
And the germans are damn smart, swept wings, and so much more.
But when it comes to flying, they might learn a bit more from us, should I say U.S.?
The original poster had a fair question. He was truly puzzled why someone would encourage something that even his level of piloting skills and knowledge indicated were WRONG>
There were some suspicious things that my vast experience picked up on and I mentioned it in a semi humorous way to make sure IT STUCK in the original poster's mind.
And I get attacked. Well I can take it. And the other posters are right...age and experience don't make you a better pilot than someone else. But when you are a better pilot than someone else and you also have age and experience on your side that is quite a benefit . I'm sure even German and British pilots have seen the poster with the biplane in the tree speaking of bold pilots and old pilots and that there aren't any old bold pilots.
Back in prehistoric times I had warned a fine student, someone who spent time and money getting to be a fine pilot...someone who had pulled himself up from poverty to become a wealthy man how to stay safe. I warned him that some pilots would enter an uncontrolled airport traffic pattern (yes pattern, not circuit) in such a way as to increase the possibility of mid air collision. I also warned him about stall recovery when avoiding a collision.
Two weeks later he encountered someone entering the pattern incorrectly at a high elevation airport. Head on collision course on base leg, he correctly on left base, the intruder incorrectly on right base. He maneuvered and avoided collision and while intensely maneuvering he approached a stall but recovered safely and landed.
I don't play around when I fly. and when I hear stupid things I call em like I see em...even if they are in other countries.
and lets talk about the peanut gallery...sloppy joe and stevelup...yeah they love to talk. Oh imagine a flight instructor not in it for the money (puhleaze)I know flight instructors are not well paid, but any flight instructor who takes a shortcut is not teaching a student how to be safe and that costs more money in the long run.
and yes I'm an American. Remember us? We invented the airplane.
I don't like you stevelup...and I sure don't respect you and the same for sloppyjoe. And I do know all about CRM and making sure a F/O can speak to me about anything of concern to make the flight safer.
So many times people make up stuff to cover their own inadequate performance as a pilot. They comment as if I am someone they have actually flown with. But of course we never will fly together. My airline only hires very experienced pilots, not the cadet boys of the european squadrons.
We hire people who can fly and think, not just push buttons.
And dear funfly, yes I know all about paradiddles, flams, ratamacues, lesson no. 25's (which the brits call the rat-a -tap). But I disagree with you about peaceful coexistence.
The likes of stevelup and sloppyjoe are just fooling themselves. They are trying to make up for failures by ''talking big''.
I admire the brits for inventing radar, and the lion's share of the jet engine . And especially for the few!
And the germans are damn smart, swept wings, and so much more.
But when it comes to flying, they might learn a bit more from us, should I say U.S.?
Fleet Manager
Joined: Aug 2006
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From: Ontario, Canada
my vast experience picked up on and I mentioned it in a semi humorous way to make sure IT STUCK in the original poster's mind.
"vast experience" may not mean experience in aviation, so buyer beware. My modest aviation experience causes me to know that really knowledgeable pilots who post here are very courteous, and have a positive mentoring communication style.
"semi humorous" may mean mostly not.
"IT STUCK" makes me think of a knife attack. Removed during medical procedure, never forgotten, but only remembered with distrust and disdain...
If I recall, I have about one year less flying experience than the other poster. I know that many younger, and less experienced pilots are much more fresh, and recently trained than I am. I delight in considering their opinions as my peers, as I have forgotten more than I should have over the years.... 20 years before earning my commercial license, I did training for the instructor, who trained me for my commercial. What goes around, comes around....
Joined: Jun 2007
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From: Swindon, Wiltshire
I don't like you stevelup...and I sure don't respect
The likes of stevelup and sloppyjoe are just fooling themselves. They are trying to make up for failures by ''talking big''.
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 1,174
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From: South of England
I warned him that some pilots would enter an uncontrolled airport traffic pattern (yes pattern, not circuit)
Aerodrome traffic circuit. The specified path to be flown by aircraft operating in the vicinity of an aerodrome.
2 s
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2012
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From: Unna, Germany
The original poster had a fair question. He was truly puzzled why someone would encourage something that even his level of piloting skills and knowledge indicated were WRONG>
even his level of piloting skills
The term "what the F***" springs to mind here.
How do you know what "my level of piloting skills are"? For all you know, I could be a highly experienced german pilot - after all, I live in germany - who has NEVER flown outside of Germany but whose skills possibly approach those of you, our illustrious SevenStrokeRoll.
If you look at my original and follow up posts, at no time did I say "I'm a newbie, I have no idea", instead I indicated that I had carried out a CHECK FLIGHT to allow me to charter planes from an airfield outside my local field. The fact that it was my first experience flying in the UK made me ask a question about the joining technique, after all, each country can have slightly different variations from the same theme yet from this question you discern that my skills are limited is, to say the least, damn patronising.
Probably the most useful comment came from Choxolate - I will ask the instructor when I see him next - probably next weekend, I hope, if the weather is good. He was unfortunately in a rush to get away, which might have explained his eagerness to get back on the ground asap and going for right downwind rather than left but I still think joining on the right when the circuit is announced as left hand is breaking some rule or other and downright dangerous.
Thanks for the comments guys, I appreciate it.....
Last edited by Steve6443; 20th February 2013 at 22:05.
Joined: Jun 2007
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From: Swindon, Wiltshire
Probably the most useful comment came from Choxolate - I will ask the instructor when I see him next - probably next weekend, I hope, if the weather is good.
My inferior piloting skills would suggest to me that as you joined downwind, you wouldn't have been 'in the circuit' until the point you joined, therefore any question of illegality is a bit spurious. As long as all your subsequent turns are in the correct direction, I can't see what the issue is.
Unless I'm completely missing something, there is nothing wrong with making a right turn to join downwind for a left hand circuit? I do it every single time I approach my home airfield from the south east and 22 (left hand) is in use.
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: In the boot of my car!
Steve
We have this silly antiquated form of joining called the overhead! a load of bees high wing and low wing all heading to one spot overhead the airfield at supposedly 2000 feet.
I was once downwind at 1000 feet with a 1400 foot cloudbase and one idiot cut straight through the downwind at 1200 feet stating he was joining overhead
From the overhead you then carry out several 90 degree blind turns mixing high and low wing aircraft just to get onto final.
It was a system developed when aircraft had no radios and were so poorly equipt that you needed to go to the overhead to make sure you were where you thought you were and could examine the signal box.
There are variations on the overhead as in your situation and on a busy active day it safer to follow the procedure.
No traffic do what the hell you want but do tell what you are doing
Pace
We have this silly antiquated form of joining called the overhead! a load of bees high wing and low wing all heading to one spot overhead the airfield at supposedly 2000 feet.
I was once downwind at 1000 feet with a 1400 foot cloudbase and one idiot cut straight through the downwind at 1200 feet stating he was joining overhead
From the overhead you then carry out several 90 degree blind turns mixing high and low wing aircraft just to get onto final.
It was a system developed when aircraft had no radios and were so poorly equipt that you needed to go to the overhead to make sure you were where you thought you were and could examine the signal box.
There are variations on the overhead as in your situation and on a busy active day it safer to follow the procedure.
No traffic do what the hell you want but do tell what you are doing
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 20th February 2013 at 22:50.
Joined: Sep 2000
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From: South of England
a load of bees high wing and low wing all heading to one spot overhead the airfield at supposedly 2000 feet.
Not sure what a "there was I... and this idiot..." story proves, apart from the fact that there will always be idiots; plus there needs to be a review of circuit procedures, better understanding and better training.
2 s
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 224
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From: UK
Steve,
I can only presume that your Instructor felt that there would be no conflicting traffic (or jumpers) and wanted to get down quickly. I think that you did the right thing as caution is always best if you are not absolutely sure.
In small aerodrome left hand circuits I have seen people joining left base and straight in but never right base. Most of the time they would announce the fact and add 'giving way to circuit traffic'.
Personally I am sorry that this thread degenerated into a slanging match. Usually, amongst the flying community, there is great respect from both sides of the Atlantic.
I can only presume that your Instructor felt that there would be no conflicting traffic (or jumpers) and wanted to get down quickly. I think that you did the right thing as caution is always best if you are not absolutely sure.
In small aerodrome left hand circuits I have seen people joining left base and straight in but never right base. Most of the time they would announce the fact and add 'giving way to circuit traffic'.
Personally I am sorry that this thread degenerated into a slanging match. Usually, amongst the flying community, there is great respect from both sides of the Atlantic.
Joined: Oct 2007
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From: fort sheridan, il
so much fine entertainment...so much fine excuse making...very little real knowledge of flight from the peanut gallery across the pond.
pilot DAR...wow, courteous pilots.....I must learn how to drink my tea with my little finger out whilst balancing a small piece of cake on my knee.
and when I speak of experience on this forum, I do mean aviation experience.
what I've noticed is that people on this forum make excuses, and pat themselves on the back with a few hours of flying experience. i've spent my life in aviation and have even been invited on numerous news shows to explain and comment on tragedies in aviation.
what goes around comes around? fine...excuses and talk are cheap...experience isn't.
pilot DAR...wow, courteous pilots.....I must learn how to drink my tea with my little finger out whilst balancing a small piece of cake on my knee.
and when I speak of experience on this forum, I do mean aviation experience.
what I've noticed is that people on this forum make excuses, and pat themselves on the back with a few hours of flying experience. i've spent my life in aviation and have even been invited on numerous news shows to explain and comment on tragedies in aviation.
what goes around comes around? fine...excuses and talk are cheap...experience isn't.
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From: Ontario, Canada
Haha! I drink my tea with my little finger stuck out, 'cause it's too big to fit into the tiny handle of those dinky tea cups. To be courteous, I smile, and say "thank you" to the person serving the tea!
A person with a few flying hours deserves a pat on the back, the same way our children do when they master a modest skill - it builds confidence!
Personally, I have only been invited to comment on aviation tragedies on the news three times, each time, 'cause I just got done helping to clean one up - but I've cleaned up many more than that, and seek to kindly share my knowledge to prevent more!
Just the same as any other industry which is based in both recreational and commercial activity, it is to a large degree sustained by the continued participation of newcomers. I wish to sustain and encourage general aviation, as it has become the professional side of my life. I need new people coming in, to be clients for the service I offer...
Most of the fine things that have happened in my life can be traced back to a favourable relationship with an aviation person - some younger and less experienced than I - and yes, a few of those from PPRuNers! So, I'm going to build relationships, not knock them down in a vain attempt to appear superior.
I will hardly discourage, or appear to demean or turn away, other pilots of any experience, who come here to participate in good faith. They could be my next client, but they are certainly someone's next client in aviation!
So like a very few who have gone before you into the annals of "oh yeah, I remember that guy!"(Guppy and David Houle come to mind) strokeroll will one day fade into the dark history of PPRuNe, to be nearly forgotten.... appropriately!
A person with a few flying hours deserves a pat on the back, the same way our children do when they master a modest skill - it builds confidence!
Personally, I have only been invited to comment on aviation tragedies on the news three times, each time, 'cause I just got done helping to clean one up - but I've cleaned up many more than that, and seek to kindly share my knowledge to prevent more!
Just the same as any other industry which is based in both recreational and commercial activity, it is to a large degree sustained by the continued participation of newcomers. I wish to sustain and encourage general aviation, as it has become the professional side of my life. I need new people coming in, to be clients for the service I offer...
Most of the fine things that have happened in my life can be traced back to a favourable relationship with an aviation person - some younger and less experienced than I - and yes, a few of those from PPRuNers! So, I'm going to build relationships, not knock them down in a vain attempt to appear superior.
I will hardly discourage, or appear to demean or turn away, other pilots of any experience, who come here to participate in good faith. They could be my next client, but they are certainly someone's next client in aviation!
So like a very few who have gone before you into the annals of "oh yeah, I remember that guy!"(Guppy and David Houle come to mind) strokeroll will one day fade into the dark history of PPRuNe, to be nearly forgotten.... appropriately!
Last edited by Pilot DAR; 21st February 2013 at 07:33.
Joined: Sep 2009
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From: N.YORKSHIRE
My home base has a roughly East/West runway. All circuits are to the south of the field.
We don't mind aircraft arriving from the North positioning for a right base when it's a left hand circuit or a right base when it's a left hand circuit.
Just so long as they are sensible about it. It saves time and fuel.
It may seem to some that they are making a turn against the circuit traffic, but they aren't 'in the circuit' until they have established on final.
In many years of flying I've only ever had one really close call. I had just taken off and was at around 150 feet on the climb-out when a military fast jet went under me doing a high speed pass down the reciprocal.
He was talking to the right airfield but looking at the wrong one.
Duxford-Cambridge. He was an American.
I'm a Brit. Remember us? We invented the aeroplane.
Sir George Cayley, 6th Baronet (British inventor and scientist) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia
We don't mind aircraft arriving from the North positioning for a right base when it's a left hand circuit or a right base when it's a left hand circuit.
Just so long as they are sensible about it. It saves time and fuel.
It may seem to some that they are making a turn against the circuit traffic, but they aren't 'in the circuit' until they have established on final.
In many years of flying I've only ever had one really close call. I had just taken off and was at around 150 feet on the climb-out when a military fast jet went under me doing a high speed pass down the reciprocal.
He was talking to the right airfield but looking at the wrong one.
Duxford-Cambridge. He was an American.
and yes I'm an American. Remember us? We invented the airplane.
Sir George Cayley, 6th Baronet (British inventor and scientist) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia
Last edited by Flyingmac; 21st February 2013 at 09:05.
Fleet Manager
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From: Ontario, Canada
I'm English. We invented the Americans
I'm Canadian, we just wandered off into the forest while the English were inventing the Americans!
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: In the boot of my car!
I think this thread is a good example of rubbish and childish behaviour.
I had the honor of meeting and talking with a Great American pilot Neil Armstrong a decade ago.
One of the most courteous and humble people I had ever met and who talked to me as a pilot as if we were at the same level yet he was a Moons distance superior to me!
Good saying " There are those who have to shout to be heard because no one listens and those who only whisper and are heard because everyone listens".
Pace
I had the honor of meeting and talking with a Great American pilot Neil Armstrong a decade ago.
One of the most courteous and humble people I had ever met and who talked to me as a pilot as if we were at the same level yet he was a Moons distance superior to me!
Good saying " There are those who have to shout to be heard because no one listens and those who only whisper and are heard because everyone listens".
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 21st February 2013 at 09:38.