Clarification please - joining the circuit
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Clarification please - joining the circuit
I hope maybe someone could clarify something for me. I did a check flight at an airfield and, after doing the usual practice EFATO, stall recovery, I was asked to return to the strip to do some circuits. I had taken off and received info concerning QFE, runway in use and that the circuit was left hand. Th runway take off direction was south westerly and I was now north west of the field. To return to the field, my intention was to head south, pass the airfield with it on my left (ie, with seperation from crosswind), then turn north east, report downwind etc and join the circuit.
Perhaps I should add: the plate for the airfield said specifically "parachute jumping possible" - and they were jumping yesterday - hence under no circumstances are overhead / deadside joins allowed, only base / downwind. So far so good.
However the FI checking me out said to me: why so difficult? Just turn SSW and join RIGHT DOWNWIND. I asked the question twice: The airfield information is: circuit is lefthand, parachuting in place, hence no deadside joins. I headed south and went around the circuit - maybe took 4 minutes longer but I felt more at ease doing it that way.
Now to my question: Surely the join I was expected to do was contrary to what was written in the plates? Or can you join a circuit to land on a right downwind, even if deadside joins are forbidden and the circuit is lefthand?
Perhaps I should add: the plate for the airfield said specifically "parachute jumping possible" - and they were jumping yesterday - hence under no circumstances are overhead / deadside joins allowed, only base / downwind. So far so good.
However the FI checking me out said to me: why so difficult? Just turn SSW and join RIGHT DOWNWIND. I asked the question twice: The airfield information is: circuit is lefthand, parachuting in place, hence no deadside joins. I headed south and went around the circuit - maybe took 4 minutes longer but I felt more at ease doing it that way.
Now to my question: Surely the join I was expected to do was contrary to what was written in the plates? Or can you join a circuit to land on a right downwind, even if deadside joins are forbidden and the circuit is lefthand?
Not quite law yet:
All turns should be in the direction of the traffic pattern!
SERA.3225 Operation on and in the vicinity of an aerodrome
An aircraft operated on or in the vicinity of an aerodrome shall:
(a) observe other aerodrome traffic for the purpose of avoiding collision;
(b) conform with or avoid the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft in operation;
(c) except for balloons, make all turns to the left, when approaching for a landing and after taking off, unless otherwise indicated, or instructed by ATC;
(d) except for balloons, land and take off into the wind unless safety, the runway configuration, or air traffic considerations determine that a different direction is preferable.
An aircraft operated on or in the vicinity of an aerodrome shall:
(a) observe other aerodrome traffic for the purpose of avoiding collision;
(b) conform with or avoid the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft in operation;
(c) except for balloons, make all turns to the left, when approaching for a landing and after taking off, unless otherwise indicated, or instructed by ATC;
(d) except for balloons, land and take off into the wind unless safety, the runway configuration, or air traffic considerations determine that a different direction is preferable.
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Thought as much, still don't understand why the FI would have required me to fly against this and join from the deadside and on a right hand circuit..... Any ideas??? Apart from the fact that it was a shorter route to the runway......
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If you're new to the airfield it makes a lot of sense to fly wide around the circuit (possibly even outside the ATZ) and join in the prescribed manner. Which in this case seems to be a direct downwind join.
The instructor may well have a lot more local knowledge and know from experience which shortcuts are acceptable and which are not.
Furthermore, was this an A/G, AFIS or ATC airfield?
Personally I am always wary of non-standard things at an A/G field because radio usage seems to be relatively poor - not to mention the no radio aircraft around. But with ATC fields you can generally ask for anything as long as it doesn't cause a conflict or noise abatement issue. Where I trained (KISM, full ATC) they had both left and right hand circuits in operation simultaneously for one single runway as a matter of course. Which circuit you got was determined by which direction you came from and nothing else. Worked a treat. If you were to join final behind an aircraft on the opposite circuit and you didn't see it, you just had to say so and ATC would call your base turn, and so forth.
The instructor may well have a lot more local knowledge and know from experience which shortcuts are acceptable and which are not.
Furthermore, was this an A/G, AFIS or ATC airfield?
Personally I am always wary of non-standard things at an A/G field because radio usage seems to be relatively poor - not to mention the no radio aircraft around. But with ATC fields you can generally ask for anything as long as it doesn't cause a conflict or noise abatement issue. Where I trained (KISM, full ATC) they had both left and right hand circuits in operation simultaneously for one single runway as a matter of course. Which circuit you got was determined by which direction you came from and nothing else. Worked a treat. If you were to join final behind an aircraft on the opposite circuit and you didn't see it, you just had to say so and ATC would call your base turn, and so forth.
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If you're new to the airfield it makes a lot of sense to fly wide around the circuit (possibly even outside the ATZ) and join in the prescribed manner. Which in this case seems to be a direct downwind join.
The instructor may well have a lot more local knowledge and know from experience which shortcuts are acceptable and which are not.
Furthermore, was this an A/G, AFIS or ATC airfield?
Personally I am always wary of non-standard things at an A/G field because radio usage seems to be relatively poor - not to mention the no radio aircraft around. But with ATC fields you can generally ask for anything as long as it doesn't cause a conflict or noise abatement issue. Where I trained (KISM, full ATC) they had both left and right hand circuits in operation simultaneously for one single runway as a matter of course. Which circuit you got was determined by which direction you came from and nothing else. Worked a treat. If you were to join final behind an aircraft on the opposite circuit and you didn't see it, you just had to say so and ATC would call your base turn, and so forth.
The instructor may well have a lot more local knowledge and know from experience which shortcuts are acceptable and which are not.
Furthermore, was this an A/G, AFIS or ATC airfield?
Personally I am always wary of non-standard things at an A/G field because radio usage seems to be relatively poor - not to mention the no radio aircraft around. But with ATC fields you can generally ask for anything as long as it doesn't cause a conflict or noise abatement issue. Where I trained (KISM, full ATC) they had both left and right hand circuits in operation simultaneously for one single runway as a matter of course. Which circuit you got was determined by which direction you came from and nothing else. Worked a treat. If you were to join final behind an aircraft on the opposite circuit and you didn't see it, you just had to say so and ATC would call your base turn, and so forth.
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A right base join into a left hand circuit is, to my limited knowledge, legal and can be an easy and quick short cut home if there is nobody else (or very few) in the circuit.
BUT, I can testify that it can scare the S**T out of a student coming left downwind just about to turn base to hear the words G-**** joining right base. It happened to me whilst I was flying my solo circuits and I extended downwind whilst my instructor had a robust conversation with the arriving pilot on the ground.
BUT, I can testify that it can scare the S**T out of a student coming left downwind just about to turn base to hear the words G-**** joining right base. It happened to me whilst I was flying my solo circuits and I extended downwind whilst my instructor had a robust conversation with the arriving pilot on the ground.
Last edited by avonflyer; 18th Feb 2013 at 10:23.
A right base join into a left hand circuit is, to my limited knowledge, legal
Flight in the vicinity of an aerodrome
12 (1) Subject to paragraph (2), a flying machine, glider or airship flying in the vicinity of what the commander of the aircraft knows, or ought reasonably to know, to be an aerodrome shall:
(a) conform to the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft intending to land at that aerodrome or keep clear of the airspace in which the pattern is formed; and
(b) make all turns to the left unless ground signals otherwise indicate.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply if the air traffic control unit at that aerodrome otherwise authorises.
12 (1) Subject to paragraph (2), a flying machine, glider or airship flying in the vicinity of what the commander of the aircraft knows, or ought reasonably to know, to be an aerodrome shall:
(a) conform to the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft intending to land at that aerodrome or keep clear of the airspace in which the pattern is formed; and
(b) make all turns to the left unless ground signals otherwise indicate.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply if the air traffic control unit at that aerodrome otherwise authorises.
2 s
Last edited by 2 sheds; 18th Feb 2013 at 13:53.
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Ok thats a good source (albeit not very well worded for an aerodrome that has a right hand circuit) 
.
So if the local ATC authorise a right base join to a left hand circuit its for sure ok.
The local "sky god" who practised this around my way pointed out that he did only turn left once he was in the circuit and therefore conformed with the rules of the air (but, of course, there were no left hand turns for him to make ..) and also that it was only an equivalent to a straight in which few(er) people tend to bitch about.
My guess is that there may be the classic disjoint that so often leads to soooo much debate here between the sentiment of the laws and the interpretation
Must admit, as I said earlier, its not my favourite join but, it is used
. So if the local ATC authorise a right base join to a left hand circuit its for sure ok.
The local "sky god" who practised this around my way pointed out that he did only turn left once he was in the circuit and therefore conformed with the rules of the air (but, of course, there were no left hand turns for him to make ..) and also that it was only an equivalent to a straight in which few(er) people tend to bitch about.
My guess is that there may be the classic disjoint that so often leads to soooo much debate here between the sentiment of the laws and the interpretation
Must admit, as I said earlier, its not my favourite join but, it is used
Last edited by avonflyer; 18th Feb 2013 at 16:20.
Ok thats a good source
albeit not very well worded for an aerodrome that has a right hand circuit
So if the local ATC authorise a right base join to a left hand circuit its for sure ok.
2 s
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Quote:
A right base join into a left hand circuit is, to my limited knowledge, legal
You said it! Its not legal so you have increased your limited knowledge.
A right base join into a left hand circuit is, to my limited knowledge, legal
You said it! Its not legal so you have increased your limited knowledge.
To visualise let's assume our airfield has runway orientation of 24 / 06, when 24 is in use, a left hand circuit is required and a right hand circuit when 06 in use. Based on the plates, surely joining right downwind runway 24 is a dead side join and hence illegal?????
Quite often an airfield that has mixed traffic will declare "No deadside" to prevent aircraft from doing a "Standard Overhead Join". This is a locally produced safety instruction and could possibly result in a charge of endangerment if there was an incident involving a breach of this rule however; it is not illegal. The Rules of the Air are enforceable in law and you can be charged with breaching the rule if there is an incident. It is a rule you could break and get away with until something goes wrong and then it will just be another charge added to the list.
Unfortunately, many pilots seem to be unaware of some fundamental Rules of the Air which are there to provide a minimum level of safety and are enforceable in law.
If there is no parachuting then joining from the deadside might not be an issue but all turns within the vicinity of the aerodrome (ATZ) must be in the circuit direction unless cleared by ATC.
Unfortunately, many pilots seem to be unaware of some fundamental Rules of the Air which are there to provide a minimum level of safety and are enforceable in law.
If there is no parachuting then joining from the deadside might not be an issue but all turns within the vicinity of the aerodrome (ATZ) must be in the circuit direction unless cleared by ATC.
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I still don't understand why the plate says due to parachuting, no dead side / overhead joins yet the FI wanted me to join the circuit from the dead side.
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first off this instructor isn't that bright...doing it their way would give them 4 minutes less pay...so be suspect!!!!
second off, if it is left hand pattern, entry on the 45 is prefered to downwind, then base then final
and really, you guys on that side of the pond talk real funny...deadside? circuit?
I published an unfamiliar airport entry pattern technique that always works and you clodd hoppers can't seem to grasp it.
here is some free advice...ask three other instructors at the airfield in question and see what they think.
the one that agrees with you is your new instructor.
second off, if it is left hand pattern, entry on the 45 is prefered to downwind, then base then final
and really, you guys on that side of the pond talk real funny...deadside? circuit?
I published an unfamiliar airport entry pattern technique that always works and you clodd hoppers can't seem to grasp it.
here is some free advice...ask three other instructors at the airfield in question and see what they think.
the one that agrees with you is your new instructor.
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second off, if it is left hand pattern, entry on the 45 is prefered to downwind, then base then final
and really, you guys on that side of the pond talk real funny...deadside? circuit?
I published an unfamiliar airport entry pattern technique that always works and you clodd hoppers can't seem to grasp it.
here is some free advice...ask three other instructors at the airfield in question and see what they think.
the one that agrees with you is your new instructor.
the one that agrees with you is your new instructor.