Clarification please - joining the circuit

[2 sheds]

My home base has a roughly East/West runway. All circuits are to the south of the field.

We don't mind aircraft arriving from the North positioning for a right base when it's a left hand circuit or a right base when it's a left hand circuit.
Just so long as they are sensible about it. It saves time and fuel.

It may seem to some that they are making a turn against the circuit traffic, but they aren't 'in the circuit' until they have established on final.

Flyingmac

Who are "we" "not to mind" aircraft failing to comply with the rules of the air? I suspect that you might "mind" when you find yourself head on to a joining aircraft when on opposite base legs. That is a very dubious argument about not being in the circuit until on final - rule 12 refers to an aircraft in the vicinity being required to make all turns to the left unless... . In the event of a collision, do you really think that any reasonable person would agree with your interpretation?

2 s

[Piper.Classique]

Richard Head

Says it all

[Pace]

2 sheds

These are uncontrolled airfields. It is mostly about how much traffic there is and pilot communication.

If I am flying into an airfield from the north onto a southerly runway and there is little or no traffic about will I add to my costs by needlessly flying into the overhead, do numerous 90 degree turns just to get back to a final position which I was almost on?

Will I communicate with the one other aircraft in the circuit and the FIS and state my intentions and position for a straight in?

If I am flying VFR and the cloudbase precludes an overhead join what will I do then??

Yes busy circuit fit in with the rest, special reasons for special patterns where those special reasons are active ( Skydropping etc) Then yes you dont want a parachutist through the wing.

But use your common sense and communicate communicate communicate!
There is not even anything wrong with a right or left based join or departure if your the only one in the sky or your in direct communication with the only other aircraft flying.

Pace

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Just for the record, ICAO...

Yeahbut, the "I" stands for "International", which in the minds of some American Daily-Wail-reader equivalents means "European" which in turn means "communist", and is therefore to be avoided like the plague[1], like A4 paper, and like anything other than foot-poundals per fortnight as a system of engineering units for designing spaceships.

In other words for these people anything with "international" in it is simply downright un-American and to be ignored. (Or pehaps shot, with the guns they keep at home for self defence.) Who TF are these "internationals" to be telling free Americans what to do??

[1] Yes I do know there is more plague in the USA than in Europe.

[Silvaire1]

I would most definitely like for US aviation to be influenced precisely zero by EU practice. So Gertrude, in that respect you are absolutely correct

You may have the gun thing wrong though - I support gun ownership as a last line of defense against the Federal Government, should it expand beyond the limits of the constitution and excessively influence local law. Just my POV and that of the guys that set that paradigm up. Not needed for personal defense where I go, although to each his own.

Think I'll run now an go buy some approved aircraft bolts, commercial off the shelf at the shop across the airport I'm sure glad I don't need the metric equivalent.

PS I also hold EU citizenship and spend many weeks per year there, four trips last year. The food and history is great.

[2 sheds]

Pace

Some observations about your comments.

These are uncontrolled airfields.

Correct. We are discussing the application of the R of the A, either in a non-radio environment, or with AGCS or FIS.

It is mostly about how much traffic there is and pilot communication.

To some extent, yes, but also as above!

If I am flying into an airfield from the north onto a southerly runway and there is little or no traffic about will I add to my costs by needlessly flying into the overhead, do numerous 90 degree turns just to get back to a final position which I was almost on?

Probably not if you are aware of the position of other traffic - is there anything in the R of the A to preclude a straight-in approach?

Will I communicate with the one other aircraft in the circuit and the FIS and state my intentions and position for a straight in?

I am sure that you will.

If I am flying VFR and the cloudbase precludes an overhead join what will I do then??

Depending on the traffic situation, presumably either as above or otherwise complying with the R of the A to join the circuit, in this case inevitably at circuit height (including all turns to the left unless...etc).

There is not even anything wrong with a right or left based join or departure if your the only one in the sky or your in direct communication with the only other aircraft flying.

Sounds reasonable, but not actually what the R of the A require.

Cheers

2 s

[Flyingmac]

2 Sheds.

Here's an extract from our website. Should you care to visit I suggest you leave your Boy's Own Book of Rules of the Air at home.

Here are the up to date airfield details, if in doubt always call us!
Be aware that there is INTENSIVE activity during daylight hours 7 days a week in the surrounding area. Baxby, Linton, Dishforth, Sutton Bank, Felixkirk, Topcliffe can be active at any time. Non radio, non transponder gliders and microlights are a speciality. Transit traffic comes through the overhead or extended centre line, often!

Runway 24 has a pronounced 2.6% downslope.



This means (if you are landing downhill) that accurate speed control is vital to avoid that long float and desperate feel for the runway, or alternatively wheel barrowing at high speed down 24.
In light and no wind conditions locals almost invariably land uphill and take off downhill. (If you need advice please ring before departure)
Therefore be aware of mixed direction traffic!
Call 'Bagby Radio' on 123.25Mhz (Radio not always manned but make all calls as normal.) Do not overfly Bagby or Thirkleby villages. Non radio Aircraft please obtain telephone Briefing. Circuit height 800ft QFE. Join by most direct method but not overhead or deadside.
Circuit LH to 24, RH to 06

[2 sheds]

Flyingmac

Thank you for that welcome to your airfield. I am not sure what point you are making as I note that you state a specific circuit direction for each runway - so I infer that you all comply with the rules of the air. I thought that was the very essence of this discussion!

2 s

[BackPacker]

I am not sure what point you are making as I note that you state a specific circuit direction for each runway

Circuit direction for a specific runway implicitly also defines the live and dead side, and the way the overhead join (if any) needs to be performed. In the sentence thereafter, they specify that deadside and overhead joins are not appreciated. That sentence would be meaningless without knowing the circuit direction or at the very least the lay of the circuit.

They could also have said "all circuits to the south".

[foxmoth]

My inferior piloting skills would suggest to me that as you joined downwind, you wouldn't have been 'in the circuit' until the point you joined, therefore any question of illegality is a bit spurious. As long as all your subsequent turns are in the correct direction, I can't see what the issue is.

Unless I'm completely missing something, there is nothing wrong with making a right turn to join downwind for a left hand circuit? I do it every single time I approach my home airfield from the south east and 22 (left hand) is in use.

All this depends on how far out you are, do the right hand turns 5 miles out and you are OK, do them half a mile away and you are not, you might be in your right turn and someone else turning the correct way, you are then both blind to the other aircraft.

[Pace]

I am perplexed by this discussion! There is a standard joining procedure which you should stick to if traffic demands! No one wants to risk a collision with either an aircraft a glider or a parachutist.
But use common sense! No traffic or minimal traffic and good communication and then join in whichever way suits you best and depart in whatever way suits you best!
Obviously if there are departing or arrival restrictions requesting you do not overfly village A or do not encroach a live parachute zone then don't do it but it is stupid to follow a pattern with no other traffic about!
It will cost you money make your passengers more uncomfortable with needless turns and cost you in time.
Also consider is it always the best way to stick a fast twin behind a 75 kt Cessna 150 ? Common sense and communication rule

Pace

[Steve6443]

My inferior piloting skills would suggest to me that as you joined downwind, you wouldn't have been 'in the circuit' until the point you joined, therefore any question of illegality is a bit spurious. As long as all your subsequent turns are in the correct direction, I can't see what the issue is.

Unless I'm completely missing something, there is nothing wrong with making a right turn to join downwind for a left hand circuit? I do it every single time I approach my home airfield from the south east and 22 (left hand) is in use.

All this depends on how far out you are, do the right hand turns 5 miles out and you are OK, do them half a mile away and you are not, you might be in your right turn and someone else turning the correct way, you are then both blind to the other aircraft.

Guys, I think you are missing the point. I don't have an issue with turning right onto downwind but with a LEFT HAND CIRCUIT in use, WHY did the Instructor recommend joining RIGHT DOWNWIND (note the use of the word RIGHT) which means I am joining DEADSIDE. He wanted me to then join right base and, once more, right turn onto final. And this although their plate specifically says "No overhead or deadside joins".

The only time I will be "in the pattern" is when I turn onto final.....

I went to the airfield today and asked him about this - his response - "well, we all do it, saves money and flying is hardly cheap."

To say I was flabbergasted by this response is an understatement. In order to save 4 minutes worth of fuel / billing time, the FI there believes it is "ok" to ignore joining procedures. I asked him what the procedure was if we were on (eg) right base on a left hand circuit and non radio traffic was on base - it's a disaster waiting to happen......

PS: His answer for the potential conflict: as we're not in the circuit, we give way..... this assumes we see the conflicting traffic..... Errr, no thanks, I'd rather not be a statistic which says I ignored published joining procedures, would rather pay an additional tenner or whatever the cost is and join correctly.....

[stevelup]

Is the FI based at that airfield? If so, he's probably done hundreds, if not thousands of landings there.

Was there any other traffic?

I think Pace's comments in the previous post sum all this up perfectly.

[Steve6443]

Is the FI based at that airfield? If so, he's probably done hundreds, if not thousands of landings there.

Was there any other traffic?

I think Pace's comments in the previous post sum all this up perfectly.

1) Yes.

2) Yes

And of this "other traffic" at least one was non radio - when I went to head onto the runway, a microlight appeared on final without announcing itself. Also, parachute drops were taking place hence the reasons for not wanting dead side / overhead joins were more than fulfilled....

[Level Attitude]

In my opinion the point of a check out is to:
- Confirm legality - Pilot Paperwork in order
- Confirm competent/safe to fly
- Confirm navigation acceptable - Pilot won't get lost
- Point out any local "Gotchas" - ie Controlled/Restricted Airspace
- Point out any obvious local features/landmarks to help with orientation
- Confirm pilot understands, and knows how to comply with, any
local procedures.
How much actual flying the above involves depends on the experience
and currency of the piolt being checked, and also on what they would like
to do.

In this case it appears that the Instructor demonstrated (with no
explanations or caveats) that it is perfectly OK to ignore the
published local procedures if one wishes.

I think this is very poor Instruction/Airmanship/Checking Out

[AberdeenAngus]

Have you asked the instructor ?

[Pace]

LA

So what you are saying is that deserted sky or fast twin you will in all circumstances fly the published procedure regardless in a non controlled airfield ? Even in this deserted sky you will add to time cost and pax comfort in
Unneeded turns ! Amazing!!!

Pace

[Steve6443]

Have you asked the instructor ?

Read my post 52, it answers your question

[Gertrude the Wombat]

pax comfort in [u]nneeded turns

One could avoid passenger discomfort by choosing to fly the extra turns in balance.

[Pace]

Not really! For a more experienced pilot who knows the home field he will make a judgement on other aircraft up etc !
In your point re the non radio I am sure your instructor would be fully aware of that aircraft and give him total priority?
This happens all the time! Of course on a busy traing day the instructor would make the decision to join the rest but even there would you consider the safe option to slot a 100 kt twin behind 3 75 kts 150 s ?
Even ATC try and avoid that buy giving unusual joining approvals to faster aircraft with experienced pilots!

Gertrude
Or not making unneeded turns which have their own hazards of blind spots and collision threats in the first place ?

Pace