FAA PPL based on a foreign licence, can I or can't I fly night visual?
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FAA PPL based on a foreign licence, can I or can't I fly night visual?
Hello,
I'm a holder of a JAA CPL and Instruments rating. I plan to go to the USA, get the faa ppl on basis of my foreign licence, and do some night hours. My initial plan is to pass the IFP (instruments foreign pilot) and do those hours as instrument time. But there may be a chance that I have to do those hours as soon as possible, and doing them vfr would be the faster (without having to pass the IFP I mean). I have to study the ATP written and I thought the IFP would be a few questions, but I've seen it's 850 questions to study... This, plus the ATP written, plus the type rating course I'm planning to do may be too much at once.
The thing is that I've found some different information about a pilot holding a ppl based on a foreign licence, some say you can't fly night visual because it's not a rating on your initial foreign licence, and some say you can.
Could anyone give me some light about this?
I'm a holder of a JAA CPL and Instruments rating. I plan to go to the USA, get the faa ppl on basis of my foreign licence, and do some night hours. My initial plan is to pass the IFP (instruments foreign pilot) and do those hours as instrument time. But there may be a chance that I have to do those hours as soon as possible, and doing them vfr would be the faster (without having to pass the IFP I mean). I have to study the ATP written and I thought the IFP would be a few questions, but I've seen it's 850 questions to study... This, plus the ATP written, plus the type rating course I'm planning to do may be too much at once.
The thing is that I've found some different information about a pilot holding a ppl based on a foreign licence, some say you can't fly night visual because it's not a rating on your initial foreign licence, and some say you can.
Could anyone give me some light about this?
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Thank you very much Silvaire1. My foreign licence has no limitation of night flying, but this because I hold an instruments rating. But the commercial / private pilots in my country who don't have the instruments rating do have a limitation on their licence stating something like "only daytime visual"... Quite complicated.
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Well, I'm very happy to hear that, thanks again Silvaire! The thing is that I have read of other people from my country having done night hours visually in the USA with a ppl based on their foreign licence, but I've also found some people saying it wasn't possible.
From what used to be the FAA Inspector's Handbook and is now called F-SIMS (Flight Standards Information Management System) -
D. Night Restriction. Some foreign pilot licenses contain a restriction that prohibits the person from operating an aircraft at night. As an example, some foreign CAAs require their citizens to hold an instrument rating and/or a night flying privilege to operate an aircraft at night. That person must also comply with that night operating restriction of his/her foreign pilot license when exercising the privileges of the § 61.75 U.S. pilot certificate (see § 61.75(e)(3)). To clarify, while the FAA may not remove the night flying restriction, it is permissible for a foreign pilot who receives a U.S. pilot certificate on the basis of the person’s foreign pilot license to accomplish the required night flying training (for the appropriate grade level of U.S. pilot certificate held) from a holder of an FAA flight instructor certificate, and receive a solo endorsement to exercise night flying privileges on his/her U.S. pilot certificate.
As Silvaire said, your JAA license does not limit you to daylight hours. What you will have on your FAA cert is
There's no night time limitation on your JAA license so I'd say there's no limit on your FAA cert even though the reason you don't have a night restriction is you have a JAA IR which you may not have the time to transfer to the FAA cert.
As I said in your other thread, you'll need a flight review before you fly under the FAA cert. The flight review must be a minimum of one hour ground review and one hour flight training. If I had a 61.75 pilot show up for a flight review I'd spend 2-3 hours reviewing stuff, airspace, how to get weather, ATC procedures, etc. Worse case, you do the flying part of the FR at night (I don't know if you need the whole 3 hours night training just for a solo signoff.) I used to do an hour of T&Goes and a short X-C to a controlled field about an hour away. Fill squares for the the student's X-C time, night time and controlled field operations all at once.
D. Night Restriction. Some foreign pilot licenses contain a restriction that prohibits the person from operating an aircraft at night. As an example, some foreign CAAs require their citizens to hold an instrument rating and/or a night flying privilege to operate an aircraft at night. That person must also comply with that night operating restriction of his/her foreign pilot license when exercising the privileges of the § 61.75 U.S. pilot certificate (see § 61.75(e)(3)). To clarify, while the FAA may not remove the night flying restriction, it is permissible for a foreign pilot who receives a U.S. pilot certificate on the basis of the person’s foreign pilot license to accomplish the required night flying training (for the appropriate grade level of U.S. pilot certificate held) from a holder of an FAA flight instructor certificate, and receive a solo endorsement to exercise night flying privileges on his/her U.S. pilot certificate.
As Silvaire said, your JAA license does not limit you to daylight hours. What you will have on your FAA cert is
“ISSUED ON THE BASIS OF AND VALID ONLY WHEN ACCOMPANIED BY [NAME OF COUNTRY] PILOT LICENSE NO. [NUMBER FROM FOREIGN PILOT LICENSE]. ALL LIMITATIONS AND RESTRICTIONS ON THE [NAME OF COUNTRY] PILOT LICENSE APPLY”
As I said in your other thread, you'll need a flight review before you fly under the FAA cert. The flight review must be a minimum of one hour ground review and one hour flight training. If I had a 61.75 pilot show up for a flight review I'd spend 2-3 hours reviewing stuff, airspace, how to get weather, ATC procedures, etc. Worse case, you do the flying part of the FR at night (I don't know if you need the whole 3 hours night training just for a solo signoff.) I used to do an hour of T&Goes and a short X-C to a controlled field about an hour away. Fill squares for the the student's X-C time, night time and controlled field operations all at once.
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So many overseas posters with views on JAA licences.....
A JAA licence carries an entry if that states that "the privileges of the this licence may be excercised at night" if the holder has obtained a night qualification. If they do not hold the night qualification then they can't fly at night. To gain the night qualification they have to do five hours of night flying training. Unde EASA it once again becomes a night rating but the process is the same.
To hold a JAA IR you must hold a night qualification unless you are colour blind and cant gain a night qualification and in very rare cases have been granted a DAY ONLY IR.
Holding a JAA IR also exempts you from the night currency requirements for take off and landings.
A JAA licence carries an entry if that states that "the privileges of the this licence may be excercised at night" if the holder has obtained a night qualification. If they do not hold the night qualification then they can't fly at night. To gain the night qualification they have to do five hours of night flying training. Unde EASA it once again becomes a night rating but the process is the same.
To hold a JAA IR you must hold a night qualification unless you are colour blind and cant gain a night qualification and in very rare cases have been granted a DAY ONLY IR.
Holding a JAA IR also exempts you from the night currency requirements for take off and landings.
For it to be otherwise would require FAA Flight Standards District Office employees to be familiar with foreign law, which is not required for that job.
from FSIMS
However, persons who operate a U.S.‑registered civil aircraft in an ICAO Member State country should be aware that some foreign countries may have additional operational and pilot certification requirements. Each pilot must inquire with that foreign country’s CAA and become familiar with that country’s operational and pilot certification requirements before operating a U.S.‑registered civil aircraft in that country.
I am aware of that, this was a sidestep based on the comment about FSDO inspectors.
I also do not agree with the Letter of Interpretation mentioned earlier.
It seems to contradict the inspector guidance in FSIMS under D(3)
(my highlights)
This clearly states limitation 'of a license' vs limitations 'on a license'.
So in the case of Victo my opinion is that he can only fly night in the US under IFR so on an IFR flightplan, albeit in VMC conditions.
Which means he would need to have his IR added to his 61.75 by taking the "Foreign Pilot Instrument Written Test".
I also do not agree with the Letter of Interpretation mentioned earlier.
It seems to contradict the inspector guidance in FSIMS under D(3)
(my highlights)
3) Determining Equivalent Rating. In some cases, determining the equivalent rating may be difficult. Several foreign countries categorize pilot ratings and limitations by horsepower or engine type. The FAA ASI (Operations) or AST should contact AFS‑810 at 202‑267‑8212 if in need of assistance. However, the limitation by horsepower or engine type is not required to be placed on the U.S. pilot certificate, because § 61.75(e)(3) requires the pilot to adhere to the limitations of his/her foreign pilot license even when exercising the privileges of his/her U.S. pilot certificate.
So in the case of Victo my opinion is that he can only fly night in the US under IFR so on an IFR flightplan, albeit in VMC conditions.
Which means he would need to have his IR added to his 61.75 by taking the "Foreign Pilot Instrument Written Test".
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Hello again Silvaire, B2N2 , MarkerInbound and Bose-X, thank you for all your answers and the discussion about my case. As I had found out in the internet, it's not a simple question. What I do not understand is how, with the huge quantity of foreign pilots who go time building to the USA, this is not clearly stated somewhere...
The thing is I have read of people of my country going to USA and getting their FAA certificate on basis of their foreign licence, and then flying night visual with no problems. But of course, this doesn't mean that it can be done...
The thing is I have read of people of my country going to USA and getting their FAA certificate on basis of their foreign licence, and then flying night visual with no problems. But of course, this doesn't mean that it can be done...
Last edited by Victo; 4th Jan 2013 at 16:02.
To clarify, while the FAA may not remove the night flying restriction, it is permissible for a foreign pilot who receives a U.S. pilot certificate on the basis of the person’s foreign pilot license to accomplish the required night flying training (for the appropriate grade level of U.S. pilot certificate held) from a holder of an FAA flight instructor certificate, and receive a solo endorsement to exercise night flying privileges on his/her U.S. pilot certificate.
In addition I have called Chief Council and have left a message with the person who wrote the letter quoted earlier.
Don't hold your breath but they might call me back next week to clarify the 'of the license' and 'on the license' issue.
Last edited by B2N2; 4th Jan 2013 at 17:25.
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Victo,
I think looking for a problem where none exists!
Most of the talk here has been a discussion about whether your FAA Airmans certificate is restricted by just the restrictions on the face of your JAA licence, or also by the restrictions in your home country's licensing regulations.
But if I understand your position correctly, you have no restriction on night VFR flight in your home country! There is no day only restriction on your licence and no day only restriction in your leglisation.
As I understand your position, you got these restrictions removed when you got an IR (as well as getting IFR privlidges). If for example you let your IR lapse, you lose your IFR privlidges, but the day only restriction shouldn't reappear!
Check the wording on your licence. Bose X gave it to your earlier. It will most probably say
Therefore you have no restriction on your licence, and no restriction in your leglisation. So all the talk of restrictions on your licence vs restriction on your licence + restrictions in your licensing regulations isn't relevant, as you have no restriction in either!
So where would the restriction to day VFR only on your FAA Airmans cert come from?
dp
I think looking for a problem where none exists!
Most of the talk here has been a discussion about whether your FAA Airmans certificate is restricted by just the restrictions on the face of your JAA licence, or also by the restrictions in your home country's licensing regulations.
But if I understand your position correctly, you have no restriction on night VFR flight in your home country! There is no day only restriction on your licence and no day only restriction in your leglisation.
As I understand your position, you got these restrictions removed when you got an IR (as well as getting IFR privlidges). If for example you let your IR lapse, you lose your IFR privlidges, but the day only restriction shouldn't reappear!
Check the wording on your licence. Bose X gave it to your earlier. It will most probably say
"the privileges of the this licence may be excercised at night"
So where would the restriction to day VFR only on your FAA Airmans cert come from?
dp
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IFP written, as per the info in ASA Test Prep book (for IR/CFII/IFP), focuses on the US-specific stuff/law/regs. I haven't taken it myself, so can't tell the actual composition/stats on the screen.
Anyway, having studied for ATP, you'd pass IFP for sure, it just takes extra 'legwork' getting it added. If you do the IFP test BEFORE visiting FSDO, then you shouldn't have to get the Temporary Airman Cert issued twice. Only then do the flight review stuff. IFP written DOES NOT need endorsement/authorisation from FAA instructor, just as few other instrument&instructor writtens (not full FAA IR written, though). Again, no need for FAA IR if you got current/valid ICAO IR for ATP.
Mind you, you only need the IFP and IR privileges specifically on validation/restricted certificate, to actually exercise the privileges/be PIC on flight plan and/or IMC, for private pilot privileges, at least, let's not drag any Part 135 stuff in etc.
As Dublinpilot pointed, you're looking for troubles where they don't seem to be.
Acting as PIC in VMC (night) is then non-issue. Hood flying/currency in VMC on VFR flight? Non-issue, again.
Wanting to count night time flying as instrument time? Just go simulated with qualified safety pilot or instructor onboard. If IR qualified and current, then even IFR is legal.
Yeah, as comparison, as you said, you don't have the Day VFR limitation on licence anymore. Instrument training/proficiency or actual night flying is sufficient as it looks.
In the USA, night VFR flying is what it says, VFR. Yes, it's good idea to have some handy instrument gages and GPS as backup and cross-reference, but to keep track of VISUAL flying, looking outside in better than IMC conditions. On no surface light, no celestial illumination night, it can be more of IMC, but not IMC cig and vis.
Back to the comparison. I just looked up at the training requirements of Night VFR rating in Australia, for example, (CASA the CAA's name) and part of syllabus/experience to be met, is basic instrumen training over 10 hours incl some navigation and specific time in pattern. The nav shall contain use of radio nav. Makes perfect sense to me from safety point of view. Anything happens, losing track/orientation, get back on instruments if not periodically scanning it as well. No such requirements in FAA system specifically for night flying (no pax and/or hire and reward stuff, just PPL privileges or training).
Anyway, having studied for ATP, you'd pass IFP for sure, it just takes extra 'legwork' getting it added. If you do the IFP test BEFORE visiting FSDO, then you shouldn't have to get the Temporary Airman Cert issued twice. Only then do the flight review stuff. IFP written DOES NOT need endorsement/authorisation from FAA instructor, just as few other instrument&instructor writtens (not full FAA IR written, though). Again, no need for FAA IR if you got current/valid ICAO IR for ATP.
Mind you, you only need the IFP and IR privileges specifically on validation/restricted certificate, to actually exercise the privileges/be PIC on flight plan and/or IMC, for private pilot privileges, at least, let's not drag any Part 135 stuff in etc.
As Dublinpilot pointed, you're looking for troubles where they don't seem to be.
Acting as PIC in VMC (night) is then non-issue. Hood flying/currency in VMC on VFR flight? Non-issue, again.
Wanting to count night time flying as instrument time? Just go simulated with qualified safety pilot or instructor onboard. If IR qualified and current, then even IFR is legal.
Yeah, as comparison, as you said, you don't have the Day VFR limitation on licence anymore. Instrument training/proficiency or actual night flying is sufficient as it looks.
In the USA, night VFR flying is what it says, VFR. Yes, it's good idea to have some handy instrument gages and GPS as backup and cross-reference, but to keep track of VISUAL flying, looking outside in better than IMC conditions. On no surface light, no celestial illumination night, it can be more of IMC, but not IMC cig and vis.
Back to the comparison. I just looked up at the training requirements of Night VFR rating in Australia, for example, (CASA the CAA's name) and part of syllabus/experience to be met, is basic instrumen training over 10 hours incl some navigation and specific time in pattern. The nav shall contain use of radio nav. Makes perfect sense to me from safety point of view. Anything happens, losing track/orientation, get back on instruments if not periodically scanning it as well. No such requirements in FAA system specifically for night flying (no pax and/or hire and reward stuff, just PPL privileges or training).
Last edited by MartinCh; 5th Jan 2013 at 00:45.
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B2N2, thank you very much for calling the Chief Council, I will be waiting for the news! I didn't know I could get an endorsment from a US instructor on a Piggy tail licence, so I see there are many solutions to my "Problem".
I want here to apologize with all of you because as Dubliner says (thanks!), I think I've been looking for problems where there are not. He's right, there's no "Day only" thing on the JAA legislation and neither in my licence. Even if it does not anywhere say on it ""the privileges of the this licence may be excercised at night" , it does not say "VFR from dawn to sunset" as it does on the licence of my friends who do not have the Instruments Rating. I've been told that with the IR I'm qualified for VFR night, and I've checked and it's so.
Martinch, my initial plan is still to get the IFP and do the hours Night IR, I think it would be stupid to spend 75hours flying visual, and without even the possibility to admire the US from the air because it's night. I only wanted to have the concepts clear in case I have to go and do the hours asap. I only will know when I speak with the guy I told you, but if everything goes well I hope he will let me the time to do this properly and without hurries. I posted you an answer to your private message, did you get it?
Thanks again for all guys, and B2N2, please, when you get the reply keep us informed, it's only curiousity, but it will be interesting to know.
I want here to apologize with all of you because as Dubliner says (thanks!), I think I've been looking for problems where there are not. He's right, there's no "Day only" thing on the JAA legislation and neither in my licence. Even if it does not anywhere say on it ""the privileges of the this licence may be excercised at night" , it does not say "VFR from dawn to sunset" as it does on the licence of my friends who do not have the Instruments Rating. I've been told that with the IR I'm qualified for VFR night, and I've checked and it's so.
Martinch, my initial plan is still to get the IFP and do the hours Night IR, I think it would be stupid to spend 75hours flying visual, and without even the possibility to admire the US from the air because it's night. I only wanted to have the concepts clear in case I have to go and do the hours asap. I only will know when I speak with the guy I told you, but if everything goes well I hope he will let me the time to do this properly and without hurries. I posted you an answer to your private message, did you get it?
Thanks again for all guys, and B2N2, please, when you get the reply keep us informed, it's only curiousity, but it will be interesting to know.
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I agree with DublinPilot. Legal wranglings aside, your FAA piggyback PPL will be restricted to private operations only, and whatever restrictions your original license limits you to.
As you are not limited to day VFR only by your original license (being the holder of an IR), you can fly VFR at night in the US. (After all an FAA PPL training course by default includes the night flying, so an FAA PPL by default has night privileges.) For IFR privileges you'd need to do that extra test.
Looking at the legal wranglings, Silvaire seems to suggest that your FAA piggyback PPL will not be restricted to day VFR only, if the JAA day VFR restriction is not written explicitly on your license, but is embedded in JAA/EASA legislation. That may well be true, but would it be wise to do night flying in the US without further training, when you've never had night training at home? Just because some civil servant wrote the word "on" when he intended to write "of"?
Furthermore,
This is just complicating matters to no end. It used to be the case in the UK that night flying was only allowed under IFR, but night IFR was possible for someone not holding an IR (just the NQ), although in VMC conditions only. The UK, thanks to EASA, is now in the process of changing over to what the rest of the world already knows and does. Night VFR is just that: Night VFR.
Trying to transpose this unique UK phenomenon over to the US will just confuse the hell out of everyone. Most likely ATC since they now will need to vector you around IMC areas, while you are listed as an IFR flight on your flight plan.
As you are not limited to day VFR only by your original license (being the holder of an IR), you can fly VFR at night in the US. (After all an FAA PPL training course by default includes the night flying, so an FAA PPL by default has night privileges.) For IFR privileges you'd need to do that extra test.
Looking at the legal wranglings, Silvaire seems to suggest that your FAA piggyback PPL will not be restricted to day VFR only, if the JAA day VFR restriction is not written explicitly on your license, but is embedded in JAA/EASA legislation. That may well be true, but would it be wise to do night flying in the US without further training, when you've never had night training at home? Just because some civil servant wrote the word "on" when he intended to write "of"?
Furthermore,
So in the case of Victo my opinion is that he can only fly night in the US under IFR so on an IFR flightplan, albeit in VMC conditions.
Trying to transpose this unique UK phenomenon over to the US will just confuse the hell out of everyone. Most likely ATC since they now will need to vector you around IMC areas, while you are listed as an IFR flight on your flight plan.
I'm a holder of a JAA CPL and Instruments rating.
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Sorry if I'm taking the thread to another direction, but I think it's still based on Foreign license issue.
If you are a CPL/IR holder (Non-FAA License) and operating as F/O in commercial operations and when you have the reuqired hours to obtain ATP, would you be able to have an ATP package from one of the shcools in US and after passing the ATP test and checks be offered FAA ATP License?
Or no you have to first get FAA PPL based on your foreign license and then do some training and get CPL and then ATP?
Regards,
AvE
If you are a CPL/IR holder (Non-FAA License) and operating as F/O in commercial operations and when you have the reuqired hours to obtain ATP, would you be able to have an ATP package from one of the shcools in US and after passing the ATP test and checks be offered FAA ATP License?
Or no you have to first get FAA PPL based on your foreign license and then do some training and get CPL and then ATP?
Regards,
AvE
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Or no you have to first get FAA PPL based on your foreign license and then do some training and get CPL and then ATP?
So when you, for instance, have a JAR-FCL/EASA PPL (which is ICAO compliant) and you want to obtain an FAA license, you've basically got three choices:
- Get a piggyback FAA PPL. This will be based on, and is dependent on the validity of your foreign PPL, but is relatively easy to obtain.
- Get a standalone FAA PPL. You're essentially starting from scratch; only the previous flying experience counts. But you need to do the written and the flight test, and the CFI has to sign you off as being ready for the flight test, which usually takes a few flights before he's convinced.
- Get a standalone FAA CPL (or ATPL) where your JAR-FCL/EASA PPL is proof of having met the entry requirements for the CPL/ATPL course/exam. You will need to do the full CPL/ATPL course for this, obviously.
AFAIK there are no solo elements in the CPL course so the whole course is done as PU/T, with the instructor as PIC (or whatever the FAA equivalents are called). Therefore it doesn't matter that your JAR-FCL/EASA PPL is not valid for flight on an N-reg, and there's no need to get a piggyback PPL just so you can do the CPL course.
Last edited by BackPacker; 5th Jan 2013 at 11:55.