Log taxi time?
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Another zombie thread back from the dead.
I do not think the rules are quite as cryptic as many people seem to think, but many seem to draw a far more restrictive conclusion than what is written down.
There is no reasonable doubt that taxi time associated with a flight is loggable under civil regulations. It is absolutely standard to log off chocks to on chocks. Your interpretation phiggsbroadband is incorrect. Unless you teleport from the parking position to the runway then the aeroplane first moves for the purpose of taking off when it starts taxying. I think this scenario of taxying to fly, and then actually flying, is beyond doubt.
Another scenario is taxying without intent to fly and not flying, such as going to the fuel pumps and then back to the parking. I think everyone would agree that this cannot be logged.
The situation that always causes a difference of opinion is if you taxy with genuine intent to takeoff, but for genuine reasons do not fly (as happened to me once last week). I know which side I come down on and I think the rules have always been quite clear, but as this thread shows, this matter always divides opinion. I am incidentally a stickler for the veracity and integrity of my logbook.
I do not think the rules are quite as cryptic as many people seem to think, but many seem to draw a far more restrictive conclusion than what is written down.
There is no reasonable doubt that taxi time associated with a flight is loggable under civil regulations. It is absolutely standard to log off chocks to on chocks. Your interpretation phiggsbroadband is incorrect. Unless you teleport from the parking position to the runway then the aeroplane first moves for the purpose of taking off when it starts taxying. I think this scenario of taxying to fly, and then actually flying, is beyond doubt.
Another scenario is taxying without intent to fly and not flying, such as going to the fuel pumps and then back to the parking. I think everyone would agree that this cannot be logged.
The situation that always causes a difference of opinion is if you taxy with genuine intent to takeoff, but for genuine reasons do not fly (as happened to me once last week). I know which side I come down on and I think the rules have always been quite clear, but as this thread shows, this matter always divides opinion. I am incidentally a stickler for the veracity and integrity of my logbook.
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Morally you are wrong.... You are not 'flying' the aircraft until it actually take flight.....
Last edited by Pull what; 30th Jan 2013 at 16:04.
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Hi Torque, I dont think that 'chocks' are mentioned in any official publications.
We pull our airplane off chocks in the hangar, and then half an hour later, when we have done the pre-flight checks and loaded the passengers, we start the engine and taxi for the purpose of doing the power checks.
Only if these are satisfactory, and the wind is suitable do we even think of going onto the runway for departure.
Once I got all the way to the 23 runway-hold position before the tower anounced 'clear to take-off, wind 320 18 knots gusting 30 knots'. As this was beyond the plane's (and my) capabilities, we turned around and parked back at our hangar, and no flight time was recorded.
btw. Some GPSs record and log flight times, I can only assume they use >30 knots and/or change of altitude, as their calculation of total flight time. If you use this method, then just add 10 minutes for the taxying time, even if it was just 3 minutes or 30 minutes, and that is the figure to put in your flying logbook.
We pull our airplane off chocks in the hangar, and then half an hour later, when we have done the pre-flight checks and loaded the passengers, we start the engine and taxi for the purpose of doing the power checks.
Only if these are satisfactory, and the wind is suitable do we even think of going onto the runway for departure.
Once I got all the way to the 23 runway-hold position before the tower anounced 'clear to take-off, wind 320 18 knots gusting 30 knots'. As this was beyond the plane's (and my) capabilities, we turned around and parked back at our hangar, and no flight time was recorded.
btw. Some GPSs record and log flight times, I can only assume they use >30 knots and/or change of altitude, as their calculation of total flight time. If you use this method, then just add 10 minutes for the taxying time, even if it was just 3 minutes or 30 minutes, and that is the figure to put in your flying logbook.
Last edited by phiggsbroadband; 30th Jan 2013 at 18:11.
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Quote:
Morally you are wrong.... You are not 'flying' the aircraft until it actually take flight.....
Amazing to hear an examiner say this. The aircraft, for the purpose of determining flight time for the recording of a pilots experience, consideration of fatigue and the application of the minimum equipment list and deferred defect schedule is deemed to be flying when it moves off chocks under its own power for the purpose of becoming airborne.
Morally you are wrong.... You are not 'flying' the aircraft until it actually take flight.....
Amazing to hear an examiner say this. The aircraft, for the purpose of determining flight time for the recording of a pilots experience, consideration of fatigue and the application of the minimum equipment list and deferred defect schedule is deemed to be flying when it moves off chocks under its own power for the purpose of becoming airborne.
So we have 3 options
1) Chock to chock with a flight for the personal logbook
2) Take-off to landing for engine/airframe/propellor hours
3) Whatever the group/club charges. For us it is airborne+ 10minutes.
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What goes in a Log Book
I do not like Part-FCL but on this topic it is very clear.
1) A pilot is required to log flights flown
If wheels did not leave ground then nothing is loggable
(Your Log Book: So could always write an account summary of a
taxi that did not turn in to a flight. and why - but no times can
go in to any column.)
2) If flight occured, was it intentional?
If not then nothing goes in Log Book
eg Accelerate-Stop/Rejected T/Off practice - Hit a bump and acft
momentarily airborne = nothing loggable
3) If intentional flight occured, what was flight time?
Clearly defined, and a 40min Taxi & Hold for 1 x 5min cct can legally
be logged as 45min of flight time if wished.
In practice, as discussed at length, there are different ways of noting
the start and end of flight time and I would suggest all are acceptable
4) If flight time recorded then what was Pilot Function(s) time(s)?
and because the AMC's definition doesn't exactly match Part-FCLs
FCL.010 Definitions
Flight time’:
for aeroplanes, touring motor gliders and powered-lift, it means the total time from the moment an aircraft
first moves for the purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight;
1) A pilot is required to log flights flown
If wheels did not leave ground then nothing is loggable
(Your Log Book: So could always write an account summary of a
taxi that did not turn in to a flight. and why - but no times can
go in to any column.)
2) If flight occured, was it intentional?
If not then nothing goes in Log Book
eg Accelerate-Stop/Rejected T/Off practice - Hit a bump and acft
momentarily airborne = nothing loggable
3) If intentional flight occured, what was flight time?
Clearly defined, and a 40min Taxi & Hold for 1 x 5min cct can legally
be logged as 45min of flight time if wished.
In practice, as discussed at length, there are different ways of noting
the start and end of flight time and I would suggest all are acceptable
4) If flight time recorded then what was Pilot Function(s) time(s)?
AMC1 FCL.050 Recording of flight time
GENERAL
(c) Format of the record:
(1)details of flights flown under commercial air transport …..
(2) for other types of flight, the pilot should record the details of the flights flown in the following
logbook format. For sailplanes and balloons, a suitable format should be used that contains the
relevant items mentioned in (a) and additional information specific to the type of operation.
INSTRUCTIONS FOR USE
(d) FCL.050 requires holders of a pilot licence to record details of all flights flown. This logbook
enables pilot licence holders to record flying experience in a manner which will facilitate this
process while providing a permanent record of the licence holders flying. Pilots who fly regularly
aeroplanes and helicopters or other aircraft categories are recommended to maintain separate
logbooks for each aircraft category.
(e) Flight crew logbook entries should be made as soon as practicable after any flight undertaken.
All entries in the logbook should be made in ink or indelible pencil.
(f) The particulars of every flight in the course of which the holder of a flight crew licence acts as
a member of the operating crew of an aircraft are to be recorded in the appropriate columns using
one line for each flight, provided that if an aircraft carries out a number of flights upon the same day
returning on each occasion to the same place of departure and the interval between successive
flights does not exceed 30 minutes, such series of flights may be recorded as a single entry.
(g) Flight time is recorded:
(1) for aeroplanes, touring motor gliders and powered-lift aircraft, from the moment an aircraft first
moves to taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight;
GENERAL
(c) Format of the record:
(1)details of flights flown under commercial air transport …..
(2) for other types of flight, the pilot should record the details of the flights flown in the following
logbook format. For sailplanes and balloons, a suitable format should be used that contains the
relevant items mentioned in (a) and additional information specific to the type of operation.
INSTRUCTIONS FOR USE
(d) FCL.050 requires holders of a pilot licence to record details of all flights flown. This logbook
enables pilot licence holders to record flying experience in a manner which will facilitate this
process while providing a permanent record of the licence holders flying. Pilots who fly regularly
aeroplanes and helicopters or other aircraft categories are recommended to maintain separate
logbooks for each aircraft category.
(e) Flight crew logbook entries should be made as soon as practicable after any flight undertaken.
All entries in the logbook should be made in ink or indelible pencil.
(f) The particulars of every flight in the course of which the holder of a flight crew licence acts as
a member of the operating crew of an aircraft are to be recorded in the appropriate columns using
one line for each flight, provided that if an aircraft carries out a number of flights upon the same day
returning on each occasion to the same place of departure and the interval between successive
flights does not exceed 30 minutes, such series of flights may be recorded as a single entry.
(g) Flight time is recorded:
(1) for aeroplanes, touring motor gliders and powered-lift aircraft, from the moment an aircraft first
moves to taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight;
FCL.010 Definitions
Flight time’:
for aeroplanes, touring motor gliders and powered-lift, it means the total time from the moment an aircraft
first moves for the purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight;
Last edited by Level Attitude; 30th Jan 2013 at 22:54.
I think a lot of this depends on the definition of a 'flight'.
If we do a RTS (Return To Stand) in the jet, if we've moved under our own power we have to record the time in the aircraft log and it counts as a sector. Subsequently, we have to take that into account in terms of FTLs on the day. Does this count towards the 100/900 running totals? Our tracking systems think it does.
Occasionally there are 'taxiing duties', which involve moving stuff around the airport. That counts for 'duty at the behest of the employer' but not for flying hours in our records.
Taking those two paragraphs together it would appear (in the company I work for, anyway) that taxiing time with the intention of flight is 'loggable', and indeed should be logged. We have plenty of lawyers, so one would assume that they'd mulled this one over.
Re: logging time spent in the queue at the holding point (commercial ops.), like at JFK, I think the relevant authorities might take a rather dim view should they need to check your logbook after an incident and it didn't match up with "official" block times. Especially if you'd busted 100/900 in the process...
If we do a RTS (Return To Stand) in the jet, if we've moved under our own power we have to record the time in the aircraft log and it counts as a sector. Subsequently, we have to take that into account in terms of FTLs on the day. Does this count towards the 100/900 running totals? Our tracking systems think it does.
Occasionally there are 'taxiing duties', which involve moving stuff around the airport. That counts for 'duty at the behest of the employer' but not for flying hours in our records.
Taking those two paragraphs together it would appear (in the company I work for, anyway) that taxiing time with the intention of flight is 'loggable', and indeed should be logged. We have plenty of lawyers, so one would assume that they'd mulled this one over.
Re: logging time spent in the queue at the holding point (commercial ops.), like at JFK, I think the relevant authorities might take a rather dim view should they need to check your logbook after an incident and it didn't match up with "official" block times. Especially if you'd busted 100/900 in the process...
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phiggs fair point, I would have been more accurate to say brakes off to brakes on. Talk of brakes, chocks and 'aircraft moving under its own power' are nearly but not exactly synonymous.
A few things that are certainly red herrings interms of logging time as a pilot of civil aeroplanes are: startup to shutdown, Hobbs, flight time for engineering purposes, any clubs method for charging for rental, how things are done in the military, on helicopters or under other jurisdictions.
The new FCL wording is clearly an attempt to clarify this issue but, like the rest of the new legislation, is poorly worded with many unforeseen (but entirely foreseeable) consequences. To steal the above example of taxying out, but having to carry out a rejected takeoff and FCL suggesting that the time is not loggable is very odd.
if you are carrying out the duties of a licenced pilot and are also carrying the legal responsibilities that go with it, it is appropriate that the time should be logged. If the authorities would not tolerate an unqualified member of the public carrying out certain actions, but instead demand an appropriately qualified pilot, then thatntime should be recorded accordingly. You can guarantee that in the event of the rejected takeoff you would be recorded on the incident paperwork as part of the operating crew.
As others have rightly said, if you question the legitimacy of recording taxy time associated with a flight, have a think about arguing your point of view in court after busting crew duty limits, flight time limitations or having had an accident.
A few things that are certainly red herrings interms of logging time as a pilot of civil aeroplanes are: startup to shutdown, Hobbs, flight time for engineering purposes, any clubs method for charging for rental, how things are done in the military, on helicopters or under other jurisdictions.
The new FCL wording is clearly an attempt to clarify this issue but, like the rest of the new legislation, is poorly worded with many unforeseen (but entirely foreseeable) consequences. To steal the above example of taxying out, but having to carry out a rejected takeoff and FCL suggesting that the time is not loggable is very odd.
if you are carrying out the duties of a licenced pilot and are also carrying the legal responsibilities that go with it, it is appropriate that the time should be logged. If the authorities would not tolerate an unqualified member of the public carrying out certain actions, but instead demand an appropriately qualified pilot, then thatntime should be recorded accordingly. You can guarantee that in the event of the rejected takeoff you would be recorded on the incident paperwork as part of the operating crew.
As others have rightly said, if you question the legitimacy of recording taxy time associated with a flight, have a think about arguing your point of view in court after busting crew duty limits, flight time limitations or having had an accident.
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Canadian regulations use the same terminology ("flight time" - means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight;") and it is settled fact here that the pilot logs time from brakes off to brakes on.
Aircraft maintenance requirements are based on accumulated air time, which is wheels up to wheels down.
If you taxi out to intending to fly but return because of a mechanical issue, that's 0.2 (or whatever) in your logbook. If you taxi just to reposition the aircraft on the ground, that's not logged.
Aircraft maintenance requirements are based on accumulated air time, which is wheels up to wheels down.
If you taxi out to intending to fly but return because of a mechanical issue, that's 0.2 (or whatever) in your logbook. If you taxi just to reposition the aircraft on the ground, that's not logged.
Canadian regulations use the same terminology ("flight time" - means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight;") and it is settled fact here that the pilot logs time from brakes off to brakes on.
Aircraft maintenance requirements are based on accumulated air time, which is wheels up to wheels down.
If you taxi out to intending to fly but return because of a mechanical issue, that's 0.2 (or whatever) in your logbook. If you taxi just to reposition the aircraft on the ground, that's not logged.
Aircraft maintenance requirements are based on accumulated air time, which is wheels up to wheels down.
If you taxi out to intending to fly but return because of a mechanical issue, that's 0.2 (or whatever) in your logbook. If you taxi just to reposition the aircraft on the ground, that's not logged.
IMO Photofly is one of a very small number of Canadian pilots who believe that taxi time with no actual flight occurring can be logged. Transport Canada certainly does not, and presenting a log book to any flying school or commercial air service with trip entries where flight time was credited towards total flight time for flights that did not involve any flying; would invite ridicule.
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Whilst one of either BPF or photofly is surely correct about Canadian practices, what goes on in other jurisdictions does not answer the original question which was UK-centric.
Also, you have to look at it from the different perspectives of a) needing more hours of a particular type for ratings, etc. and b) needing less hours, for FTL reasons.
I'm not sure the CAA/FAA/whatever discriminate between whether you're doing it wrong in one direction or the other. I think they might have words either way...
I'm not sure the CAA/FAA/whatever discriminate between whether you're doing it wrong in one direction or the other. I think they might have words either way...
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Whatever you do, I'd say the important thing is to be consistent. If it came to the crunch and you've been logging taxi time in different ways to suit your purposes at the time, it will not help you get the benefit of whatever discretion there may be.
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Originally Posted by Big Pistons Forever
Transport Canada certainly does not, and presenting a log book to any flying school or commercial air service with trip entries where flight time was credited towards total flight time for flights that did not involve any flying; would invite ridicule.
It's also false on the plain English meaning of the relevant regulations. If leaving the ground was actually necessary to log the time, then the regulations would say "from the time the aircraft first moves before taking off." The word "intention" is in the regulation - both UK and Canadian - for a specific reason.
Last edited by photofly; 31st Jan 2013 at 18:10.
Photofly
I have personal knowledge of a pilot who tried to apply taxi only time towards an ATPL. The time was specifically disallowed TC, even though it did not effect his application. What it did do was trigger an extremely indepth review of every entry in his log book which delayed the issue of the ATPL by 2 months.
While this is a Canadian example, I suspect the same thing would happen with the CAA.
Bottom line is you do not want any suspect time in your logbook when applying for a proffesional license......
I have personal knowledge of a pilot who tried to apply taxi only time towards an ATPL. The time was specifically disallowed TC, even though it did not effect his application. What it did do was trigger an extremely indepth review of every entry in his log book which delayed the issue of the ATPL by 2 months.
While this is a Canadian example, I suspect the same thing would happen with the CAA.
Bottom line is you do not want any suspect time in your logbook when applying for a proffesional license......
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If the word "intention" is used is the rules, it's for a purpose.
So if you're intention to fly is genuine when you release the breaks, you must log, even if you don't fly whatever the reason can be. That's the rule.
Otherwise the rule would have been worded differently.
So if you're intention to fly is genuine when you release the breaks, you must log, even if you don't fly whatever the reason can be. That's the rule.
Otherwise the rule would have been worded differently.
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I log whatever is entered in the companies crew scheduling system as this is the only legal way that i can validate my flight time for any future employers. The system logs block out to block in for purposes of flight, therefore (theoretically) we would log the 3 hour wait in JFK, but we wouldn't log repositioning times after dropping off passengers (but we are paid for this time).
By the same logic, we can log "sleeping time" during augmented or double crew flights.
Mutt
By the same logic, we can log "sleeping time" during augmented or double crew flights.
Mutt
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engine & airframe log books
What's the concensus on engine and airframe logs for a uk private owned light aircraft.
I have interpreted as brakes off to brakes on same as my flying log, for both, but is that correct or should the engine log book only record flying time, or even hobbs time?
Seems to be a lot of room for personal interpretation depending on who you ask...
I have interpreted as brakes off to brakes on same as my flying log, for both, but is that correct or should the engine log book only record flying time, or even hobbs time?
Seems to be a lot of room for personal interpretation depending on who you ask...
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You are cheating yourself if you use the brakes off to brakes on time for engin and airframe logbooks.
We use airborne time only for those and airborne + 10 minutes of personal logbooks.
We use airborne time only for those and airborne + 10 minutes of personal logbooks.
