Log taxi time?

[Okavango]

Had a detail over the weekend where we didn't get airborne due deteriorating conditions so returned to base with 10mins taxi/run-up on the tacho. Seems odd to log time without T/O or Landing - do others bother to record this?

[Unusual Attitude]

Personally I log airbourne time + 5mins either side which certainly used to be the norm but its probably all changed by now!

I seem to remember reading somewhere that as soon as an aircraft moves under its own power its loggable which would fit in with the above. I dont think I'd log 20mins of taxing around the apron however unless its for training in which case I suppose its valid experience, especially in a tailwheel which can need close attention at all times the engine is running!

Regards

UA

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Legally you can't log the time for the purposes of obtaining future licences and ratings, because it is only a flight from the point the aircraft moves under its own power, with the intention of becoming airborne.

The 'intention' would be the point at which a fly/no fly decision is made, which may occur after the aircraft begins moving. It doesn't matter whether you had intention to fly before removing the brakes/seeing the weather deteriorate.

There's nothing stopping you logging the time in your logbook for your own reference, so long as you mark it such that you remember not to take it into account when applying for further ratings/licences in the future.

Hope this helps

[Okavango]

Thanks all - makes perfect sense and I had only got half the story in my brain (the moving under own power). Would feel weird to log though I have a last line in my log book so wanted to tidy everything up. Seem to recall you don't necessarily need a license to taxi an aircraft so that would also stack up with ground movements not being loggable (unless you had the intention of becoming airborne in which case you'd obviously need the license).

[172_driver]

I don't think there is a right or wrong to this question.. the only right is the CAA inspector's interpretation of any single regulation.

Personally I don't log taxi time, but I had friends that used to do it as their 'intention was to take-off' (as written in the regulations). The fact they had to return back to the ramp for whatever reason (technical, weather) was irrelevant.

Ask 10 pilots.. get 20 different answers

[AdamFrisch]

I log tach/hobbs time. As far as I'm concerned, the minute the props are turning, it's loggable. Moving an aircraft around by its own power takes almost as much skill as flying it, albeit a different one. It's not like someone with no knowledge of flying/aircraft systems could get it started, so as soon as something demands special skills that you have been trained for, it's fair game.

The only time I wouldn't log it is if I start engines, but never move it.

[S-Works]

You can log what you want in a personal flying logbook. Its what you log and try to count towards the issue or revalidation/renewal of a rating that becomes the problem.

As an examiner if you tried to count the time spent taxiing for a flight that did not take place towards the issue/renewal/revalidation of a rating I would send you away with a flea in your ear with the paperwork unsigned.

The rules are very clear around what is considered as flight time, from the moment you release the brakes for the purpose of flight until you apply the brakes at the end of the FLIGHT. Props turning or taxiing around are not flight time. It's very simple.

[Unusual Attitude]

I actually had a very good example of this being a bit of an odd one on Sat as I took part in a small flypast at our local field.
As I was first through the plan was a stream takeoff low-level tight circuit and a max chat pass before standard circuit and landing, because of this I spent a good 15mins running the engine up to temp with only approx 5mins actually in the air. So does that mean I can log it as a 25mins flight? IE 15mins run up, 5mins flight and 5 mins taxi in and cool down?

It only went in my logbook as 15mins as I just use the 5mins either side rule I was taught 15years ago. I've had some monumental holds at Aberdeen over the years involving sitting for 45mins on the ground being shuffled around various holds before being able to get off....again, only ever logged that as 5mins either side also....

Regards

UA

[JW411]

When i used to work for Mrs Windsor it was all very simple. Only the time from take-off to landing went in the logbook. Taxi time was never recorded.

[gijoe]

..which is why you could get a credit upto a certain number of hours of taxiing time that you would have done whilst working for HM.

Civvy logging of time is different.

Don't know if you can still do this?

[BackPacker]

EASA defines it slightly differently, but not less unambiguous...

(g) Flight time is recorded:
(1) for aeroplanes, touring motor gliders and powered-lift aircraft,
from the moment an aircraft first moves to taking off until the
moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight;

http://easa.europa.eu/agency-measure...20Part-FCL.pdf - Page 22.

[what next]

Only the time from take-off to landing went in the logbook. Taxi time was never recorded.

Yes, the good old days! It was the same here before JAR/EU/EASA-FCL. Time in the logbook was time spent in the air. Nothing else. I value my pre-JAR logbook entries much more than those after, because I know that all this was real flying time. From then on, I can't even tell what percentage of the time was spent on the ground. Add to that co-pilots (or first officers if you prefer - I don't) who are eager to unfreeze their ATPLs in the shortest possible time and therefore put ridiculous taxi times on the log! (I must be the most hated captain in our small operation because I don't allow them to log more than ten minutes of taxi-time - unless it was reallllly long like in Frankfurt or Barcelona.)

The only reason to log taxi time alone that comes to mind is to generate some written record of the fact that you have been on duty that day, either as pilot or instructor. Otherwise the bean-counters may count that as an off-day. But for private flying certainly not.

[Torque Tonight]

Latest version of the regulation concerning 'Flight Time':

For aeroplanes, touring motor gliders and powered-lift, it means

the total time from the moment an aircraft first moves for the

purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at

the end of the flight;

This seems to have eliminated the ambiguity in previous regulations regarding if you taxied with the intention of flying but then for whatever reason did not fly, was the time loggable? The new wording above seems to clarify that if the taxy is associated with a flight it is loggable whereas taxying but not flying is not loggable.

[Unusual Attitude]

I did a couple of years flying HM's finest plastic motor gliders and indeed used to log that as JW411 said basis time in the air only. Back in the day you could also log that as Group A so it also used to go in my Civvie logbook with 5mins added either side for taxi time, thnking back thats probably where I got the 5mins either side habbit from.

That and rounding everything up / down to the nearest 5mins on the Form 700 since we werent the most mathematically talented bunch...

[mikehallam]

I'm with Adam on this one.

I/c time of the beast commences once the fan is running when it can kill folk or bend the 'plane. Control of the vehicle on the ground requires certain different but necessary skills too.

Perhaps one should log ground time as "pax" time though who is i/c at that phase when 'solo', I couln't possibly say !

To meet all folks' needs log books could/should possibly have four columns I/c on/off plus flying time t/o to t/d !

However after 40+ years of logging times I am unlikely to change now - it is a pretty personal thing after all.

mike hallam.

[Big Pistons Forever]

As was said on several posts you can log anything you want, but personally I would feel like a total fool making an entry in my "record of flying experience" AKA my logbook, for "flight time" that did not involve any flying.

As for logging flight time in the case of long ground holds, well I treat all flights the same. I record the time when the aircraft first starts moving, when it takes off, lands and when I reach my final parking spot. In the long run it all averages out as for every day there is a big delay there will be days where there is hardly any taxing.

[Pace]

Code:

This seems to have eliminated the ambiguity in previous regulations regarding if you taxied with the intention of flying but then for whatever reason did not fly, was the time loggable

Torque

That does not remove any ambiguity at all ? If you taxi with the purpose of taking off but then have to cancel and return then you have still taxied with the purpose of taking off ie you may get a large mag drop which will not clear!
The flight commences with the taxi and ends with brakes on and shutdown!
Taxiing requires pilot skills and decisions one which maybe to abort the flight!
IMO you consider the whole flight from brake release to shutdown as the flight!
Flying is very expensive and pilot need hours so make a meal if it and grab every minute you legally can!
Otherwise what do you do ? Not record the hours on autopilot because your not flying the aircraft?
You are in charge of that aircraft whether its in flight, taxiing or being tested for flight.
Record brakes off to shutdown with pride!

Pace

[Pace]

Code:

This seems to have eliminated the ambiguity in previous regulations regarding if you taxied with the intention of flying but then for whatever reason did not fly, was the time loggable

Torque

That does not remove any ambiguity at all ? If you taxi with the purpose of taking off but then have to cancel and return then you have still taxied with the purpose of taking off ie you may get a large mag drop which will not clear!
The flight commences with the taxi and ends with brakes on and shutdown!
Taxiing requires pilot skills and decisions one which maybe to abort the flight!
IMO you consider the whole flight from brake release to shutdown as the flight!
Flying is very expensive and pilot need hours so make a meal if it and grab every minute you legally can!
Otherwise what do you do ? Not record the hours on autopilot because your not flying the aircraft?
You are in charge of that aircraft whether its in flight, taxiing or being tested for flight.
Record brakes off to shutdown with pride!
The flight part is a major part of the operation of
the aircraft but its the operation of the aircraft which counts not just the part in the air!

Pace

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Taxiing requires pilot skills and decisions one which maybe to abort the flight!

Whilst that is clearly the case ...

Flying is very expensive and pilot need hours so make a meal if it and grab every minute you legally can!

... any rental outfit that tried to charge me for not flying because their aircraft had an unacceptable fault would discover that I wasn't terribly keen on paying!

[Sillert,V.I.]

I'd agree with Pace & always log time from when the aircraft first moves under its own power until the parking brake is set.

I'd also agree that you may choose, if you wish, to log time on the same basis if you do not actually become airborne providing that the intention of flight was present when the aircraft first moved.

This would also generally be in keeping with the rules for accident reporting, which is defined as "an occurrence assocated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight until such time as all such persons have disembarked".

If I'm doing something for which I could be called to account to the AAIB if it goes t**s up, then IMO that's flying time & should be logged as such.

And if anyone is also reading the PA-18 thread, several of the posters there are saying the hardest part of flying the Cub is taxying the aircraft.