What to do if someone flies dangerously?
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Not even from 10,000' 
Still you could always put it down in the LA river 
I can't even judge 500' myself and I have been flying for over 12 years. Anyway I wouldn't bother getting involved unless I saw someone blatantly being an alpha hole fool flying up the beach at 50', then I might if I had evidence.
TheRule 5 bit quoted above only applied to a "congested area". What constitutes a congested area is a bit of a grey area actually. Central London would be classed as a congested area, as would central Somehwereelse. Whether or not some little village in the middle of nowhere would be, only the courts can tell.
Some guy was busted for flying over manchester a while back. Actually he wasn't as he argued he was on an ATC clearance (absolving him of the foot rules but not the glide clear) and the fact that there were landing spots available which weren't "normally used for recreation" then he got off if I recall correctly.
Still you could always put it down in the LA river I can't even judge 500' myself and I have been flying for over 12 years. Anyway I wouldn't bother getting involved unless I saw someone blatantly being an alpha hole fool flying up the beach at 50', then I might if I had evidence.
TheRule 5 bit quoted above only applied to a "congested area". What constitutes a congested area is a bit of a grey area actually. Central London would be classed as a congested area, as would central Somehwereelse. Whether or not some little village in the middle of nowhere would be, only the courts can tell.
Some guy was busted for flying over manchester a while back. Actually he wasn't as he argued he was on an ATC clearance (absolving him of the foot rules but not the glide clear) and the fact that there were landing spots available which weren't "normally used for recreation" then he got off if I recall correctly.
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I thought it was 1000' above 'Urban areas'? There are local rules, we don't fly below 2,000' above Lincoln (the Cathedral start whining if we do, spoils their services with their ear splitting bells and 9 billion watt organ.....).
Last edited by thing; 10th Oct 2012 at 22:02.
You have to maintain a certain altitude over urban areas in the US, but it should be obvious to anybody who has overflown the Los Angeles basin and its network of airports (probably the best example) that there is no possibility to glide clear from 1000 ft.
Deliberately flying towards the suburbs, flying low over people's houses & then flying back to a rural airfield is a completely different matter.
I remember all too clearly, renting a helicopter 12-15 years ago in Boulder City to do a 'safety piloted' tour over the Hoover dam, Grand Canyon (permitted in those days), etc. and being surprised that i) I could fly down 'The Strip' in Las Vegas at night and at 1,000' in a SE machine and ii) that I could fly any helicopter (except Robinsons) if the owner would throw me the keys, without a separate ticket 
. US aviation law seems much more relaxed and, in many cases I have to say, much more pragmatic when compared with Europe.
. US aviation law seems much more relaxed and, in many cases I have to say, much more pragmatic when compared with Europe.
After 13 years in the LA Basin compared to the green fields of Sherburn I am still somewhat uneasy at the stuff we have to fly over but I don't think the purpose of the glide clear rule is that it means you should be able to find somewhere to land only that you don't crash somewhere that is likely to hurt somebody else. Even ln LA that is usually easy enough except maybe round downtown..
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To the OP, how do you know he wasn't uncertain of position, aware he was close to the TMA and (sensibly enough) orbiting while trying to get a fix? Maybe he panicked and allowed himself to get too low. And that's even assuming he was too low. As others have said it's almost impossible to judge height accurately from ground level, even for experienced pilots.
Judge not lest thou be judged! You may be in a similar position yourself one day.
There's a real danger that going off half-cocked and reporting this kind of thing as "dangerous flying", where you are uncertain as to the facts, just gives more ammunition to NIMBYs and the anti-aviation brigade.
Judge not lest thou be judged! You may be in a similar position yourself one day.
There's a real danger that going off half-cocked and reporting this kind of thing as "dangerous flying", where you are uncertain as to the facts, just gives more ammunition to NIMBYs and the anti-aviation brigade.
Last edited by taxistaxing; 11th Oct 2012 at 08:31.
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All,
Thanks for the comments, lots to think about. I suppose i should try to answer some of the points raised.
1. How do I know the height? Well, I don't, and to all of those who said am I sure, no I am not. It looked very low, is what I can tell you. Certainly lower that a microlight turning on to finals at our airstrip, and that is 600 ft. So, could they have been over 500ft? Yes, but I didnt get that impression. What I do know is that there is precious little space to put a microlight down there, what with tall trees around the few fields. The best bet would have been the road, but probably not the safest. Sure, I am still learning, and have a lot of experience yet to gain, hence asking. It seems the general response is that it's not dangerous if the pilot thinks they can put the craft down somewhere. I can understand that, but it doesn't give much scope for a plan B. surely, just like any other risk based sport, you should be thinking not just 'how do I deal with an emergency right now?' but also 'what is my plan B if things dont go as expected'. Am I missing something here?
2. Did they have permission? I have no idea, but would be very surprised at a microlight getting permission to enter LONDON CTR.
3. Unsure of position? I can imagine that's possible, but then flying circles around and about, for 10 minutes? Surely, by that time, you would have used the radio and asked for assistance, over such a built up area?Nor if no radio, have hotfooted it out of there. It's also not that difficult to see which way central London is (lots and lots of houses, and tall buildings) and which way out of London is (big green fields).
4. Should you report someone? Let's be clear here, I was asking what your thoughts are. In any sport with risks and a small user base, there is a constant balance between freedom of action, and guilt by association. Looking at some of the recent issues around airfields being closed or having complaints against them, it seems that it can often be the few inconsiderate ones who spoil it for the rest. I asked what the correct (or generally accepted) thing to do was, because I wanted to see how opinion fell. In sailing (a self regulated sport) you tend to leave people alone, but if you see them doing something dangerous, discuss it with them. More importantly, if you see someone doing something that will potentially put them and others (especially others) at risk, you do get the authorities involved, and leave them to sort out if the issue was an error, or someone being irresponsible. That is what regulation and due process in law is about.
Anyway, after that diatribe, can I just say thanks. I appreciate all the different perspectives, and it gives me something to think about, both in my own flying, and my approach to others.
Ipz
Thanks for the comments, lots to think about. I suppose i should try to answer some of the points raised.
1. How do I know the height? Well, I don't, and to all of those who said am I sure, no I am not. It looked very low, is what I can tell you. Certainly lower that a microlight turning on to finals at our airstrip, and that is 600 ft. So, could they have been over 500ft? Yes, but I didnt get that impression. What I do know is that there is precious little space to put a microlight down there, what with tall trees around the few fields. The best bet would have been the road, but probably not the safest. Sure, I am still learning, and have a lot of experience yet to gain, hence asking. It seems the general response is that it's not dangerous if the pilot thinks they can put the craft down somewhere. I can understand that, but it doesn't give much scope for a plan B. surely, just like any other risk based sport, you should be thinking not just 'how do I deal with an emergency right now?' but also 'what is my plan B if things dont go as expected'. Am I missing something here?
2. Did they have permission? I have no idea, but would be very surprised at a microlight getting permission to enter LONDON CTR.
3. Unsure of position? I can imagine that's possible, but then flying circles around and about, for 10 minutes? Surely, by that time, you would have used the radio and asked for assistance, over such a built up area?Nor if no radio, have hotfooted it out of there. It's also not that difficult to see which way central London is (lots and lots of houses, and tall buildings) and which way out of London is (big green fields).
4. Should you report someone? Let's be clear here, I was asking what your thoughts are. In any sport with risks and a small user base, there is a constant balance between freedom of action, and guilt by association. Looking at some of the recent issues around airfields being closed or having complaints against them, it seems that it can often be the few inconsiderate ones who spoil it for the rest. I asked what the correct (or generally accepted) thing to do was, because I wanted to see how opinion fell. In sailing (a self regulated sport) you tend to leave people alone, but if you see them doing something dangerous, discuss it with them. More importantly, if you see someone doing something that will potentially put them and others (especially others) at risk, you do get the authorities involved, and leave them to sort out if the issue was an error, or someone being irresponsible. That is what regulation and due process in law is about.
Anyway, after that diatribe, can I just say thanks. I appreciate all the different perspectives, and it gives me something to think about, both in my own flying, and my approach to others.
Ipz
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4. Should you report someone? Let's be clear here, I was asking what your thoughts are. In any sport with risks and a small user base, there is a constant balance between freedom of action, and guilt by association. Looking at some of the recent issues around airfields being closed or having complaints against them, it seems that it can often be the few inconsiderate ones who spoil it for the rest. I asked what the correct (or generally accepted) thing to do was, because I wanted to see how opinion fell. In sailing (a self regulated sport) you tend to leave people alone, but if you see them doing something dangerous, discuss it with them. More importantly, if you see someone doing something that will potentially put them and others (especially others) at risk, you do get the authorities involved, and leave them to sort out if the issue was an error, or someone being irresponsible. That is what regulation and due process in law is about.
Our sport, hobby, occupation has for decades been unfairly attacked, legislated on etc to the point that the sport cannot breath.
There are already so many pressure groups, residents associations who try to get GA closed down. We seem to loose airfields all the time.
Aviation used to be the dream of Kids with books like Biggles firing their imagination, the true pioneering age of flight.
My feeling is there are enough out there to take pot shots at pilots without us doing the same to our own.
Do not for one minute think these pressure groups or associations care about their peace being broken most are bored retired people with nothing to do but attach their flag to some mast or other.
Ok if we know of a pilot who is a danger to himself then a word in his ear or his flying club should be the first action but I think we are treading dangerous ground if we start snooping and telling on every perceived misdemeanor valid or not!
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 11th Oct 2012 at 11:14.
What Pace said.
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2. Did they have permission? I have no idea, but would be very surprised at a microlight getting permission to enter LONDON CTR.
Why?
Why?
2- no good reason to enter CTR, as I'm quite sure microlights cannot land in any of London's airports (but I might be wrong on that one, feel free to correct me) and he didn't appear to be going anywhere that might require routing through the CTR (as a matter of fact, it was just flying in circles)
Avoid imitations
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(absolving him of the foot rules but not the glide clear)
In UK, a SVFR clearance does absolve the pilot from compliance with the "1,000 foot" rule, but even then, the "500 foot" rule still applies for any flight over a congested area, irrespective of an ATC clearance to the contrary.
The only exemptions are if the pilot is taking off or landing at a government or licensed airfield, or under the terms of a specific written permission from the CAA. This applies to single and twin engined aircraft, including helicopters, btw.
In my office I have a box file full of written permissions, now at a mere £113 a pop from the CAA.
1 - no transponder, hence no TCAS protection
2- no good reason to enter CTR, as I'm quite sure microlights cannot land in any of London's airports (but I might be wrong on that one, feel free to correct
2- no good reason to enter CTR, as I'm quite sure microlights cannot land in any of London's airports (but I might be wrong on that one, feel free to correct
I won't be flying the Eurostar with mode S and TCAS into Denham any time soon then.
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1 - no transponder, hence no TCAS protection.
2- no good reason to enter CTR
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I won't be flying the Eurostar with mode S and TCAS into Denham any time soon then.
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The last time I remember flying in London, transponders were not required in uncontrolled airspace under the TMA. So you won't get any TCAS protection if someone busts vertically anyway.
You may want to enter terminal airspace to save time and fuel on your journey. You also let the controller know who you are and what you want to do. They will also give you a route to operate safely so nobody is panicking if you bust.
So, I still maintain that the chances that this particular ultralight was operating within the limits of an ATC clearance are rather slim, much slimmer than if it had been a Eurostar with Mode S transponder and TCAS flying along a well-known VFR crossing route.
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I don't think stating as your intentions "I want to circle around a bit to look at the pretty houses" will get you anywhere with your average air traffic controller,
Air traffic controllers are there to help the pilot, not the other way round, or so I have been told by Air traffic controllers I have spoken to.
They may say "No we are too busy" but they (shouldn't) just say no for the sake of it, even in Hallowed London.
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Ignore it. Did it harm you or anyone else?
...let go of your net curtains, sit down and stop watching what the neighbours are up to.
I fully agree with “Pace’s” comments above. Spend your spare time making GA better instead of ruining it.
...let go of your net curtains, sit down and stop watching what the neighbours are up to.
I fully agree with “Pace’s” comments above. Spend your spare time making GA better instead of ruining it.
Last edited by RMK; 11th Oct 2012 at 16:16.