Nomex flight suits
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Nomex flight suits
I am currently debating the advantages of wearing a military style Nomex flight suit for PPL flying.
I have been reading IIAB bulletins recently. Many serious General Aviation accidents that I have read have resulted in fire injury prompting me to consider the advantages of wearing a fire retardant coverall.
I currently SFH a PA28 from an airfield which offers commercial as well as private pilot instruction. It is not uncommon to see students arriving in bobby dazzlers, shirt & tie. Most users of the flying school are smart in appearance, this is considered the norm.
My question to you is this: have the advantages of wearing a military nomex suit been discussed on this forum before? Do you have a dress code of conduct at your commercial training centre? I would be the only flyer at my flying school to wear a coverall and I do not want to draw negative attention to myself by wearing one. However my number one priority at all times must be my attitude towards flight safety and my ability to aviate to safety should a situation occur resulting in fire in the cabin.
My second question is this: Does anyone have any experience of a fire resistant coverall doing its job? If a pilot chooses to wear a suit and doesn’t wear Nomex gloves does this defeat the objective (Severely burnt hands cannot operate controls adequately, same goes for feet). Or is anything better than nothing? Scenario: Engine fire develops in flight, fire in the cabin, would a nomex suit buy more time in getting the forced landing executed or do the benefits of these suits lie in other areas?
I would like to avoid the ‘olright Maverick’ remarks at my flying establishment but at the same time I would like to do all that I can in the interests of my own safety and the safety of my passengers.
Your input would be appreciated.
POL1W
I have been reading IIAB bulletins recently. Many serious General Aviation accidents that I have read have resulted in fire injury prompting me to consider the advantages of wearing a fire retardant coverall.
I currently SFH a PA28 from an airfield which offers commercial as well as private pilot instruction. It is not uncommon to see students arriving in bobby dazzlers, shirt & tie. Most users of the flying school are smart in appearance, this is considered the norm.
My question to you is this: have the advantages of wearing a military nomex suit been discussed on this forum before? Do you have a dress code of conduct at your commercial training centre? I would be the only flyer at my flying school to wear a coverall and I do not want to draw negative attention to myself by wearing one. However my number one priority at all times must be my attitude towards flight safety and my ability to aviate to safety should a situation occur resulting in fire in the cabin.
My second question is this: Does anyone have any experience of a fire resistant coverall doing its job? If a pilot chooses to wear a suit and doesn’t wear Nomex gloves does this defeat the objective (Severely burnt hands cannot operate controls adequately, same goes for feet). Or is anything better than nothing? Scenario: Engine fire develops in flight, fire in the cabin, would a nomex suit buy more time in getting the forced landing executed or do the benefits of these suits lie in other areas?
I would like to avoid the ‘olright Maverick’ remarks at my flying establishment but at the same time I would like to do all that I can in the interests of my own safety and the safety of my passengers.
Your input would be appreciated.
POL1W
There have been a few threads about this, but there's always room for another.
For the bulk of my flying I wear a Nomex suit (or at the least, cotton trousers and a nomex or leather jacket), plus usually thin leather gloves. Leather does the job nearly as well, and pure cotton isn't too far behind.
A few people do take the mickey - which is entirely their problem so far as I'm concerned.
In that utterly freak accident that I can't predict, it may well save my life, or at-least my long term wellbeing. The rest of the time, it protects my clothes, has pockets in all the right places, and I can leave all my flying bits in it when I take it off and sling it in the car after a flight.
(I did a long trip for business today and did just that, flying suit left in the aeroplane, suit jacket back on, job done.)
Military ones are cheap but, well, very military - easily bought on eBay or the like. There are various suppliers in various companies who will happily supply you with non-green ones, but just avoid Polycotton.
Incidentally,watch the video at the bottom of this page for the Nomex versus polycotton argument.
To not have the p*** taken out of you, the biggest rule is never put any badge on it you didn't earn, unless it's clearly being humourous. The next rule is simply not to wear it unless you're near to an aeroplane, or about to be. Those two generally do the job.
G
For the bulk of my flying I wear a Nomex suit (or at the least, cotton trousers and a nomex or leather jacket), plus usually thin leather gloves. Leather does the job nearly as well, and pure cotton isn't too far behind.
A few people do take the mickey - which is entirely their problem so far as I'm concerned.
In that utterly freak accident that I can't predict, it may well save my life, or at-least my long term wellbeing. The rest of the time, it protects my clothes, has pockets in all the right places, and I can leave all my flying bits in it when I take it off and sling it in the car after a flight.
(I did a long trip for business today and did just that, flying suit left in the aeroplane, suit jacket back on, job done.)
Military ones are cheap but, well, very military - easily bought on eBay or the like. There are various suppliers in various companies who will happily supply you with non-green ones, but just avoid Polycotton.
Incidentally,watch the video at the bottom of this page for the Nomex versus polycotton argument.
To not have the p*** taken out of you, the biggest rule is never put any badge on it you didn't earn, unless it's clearly being humourous. The next rule is simply not to wear it unless you're near to an aeroplane, or about to be. Those two generally do the job.
G
I wear a nomex flight suit when flying ex-Military aircraft or when engaged in specialty operations like forest fire fighting. I do not wear a fire resistant suit for your average Piper/Cessna flight as I think the risk is low enough that I am comfortable in regular clothes.
However as Genghis says it is your decision. I would say that you should put it on when you get into the airplane and take it off when you get out. Wearing it around the flying club will invite (deserved IMO) ridicule. I would also say that IMO in the context of normal GA flying 80 % of the value of a full suit can be achieved simply by wearing a set of Nomex back/leather palm gloves. Protecting your hands will allow you to touch a hot switch/control/structure which could make the difference in fighting a cockpit fire or mean the difference of escaping or being trapped in a crashed burning airplane. In the meantime it gives you a good grip when your hands are sweaty.
I would also ask an open ended question. Are you doing everything you could to avoid the accident in the first place? That is do you follow a regular program of recurrent training, practice checklist discipline, understand the aircraft systems, study the safety bulletins and learn what not to do by studying accident reports etc etc etc. Those are IMO the areas where true improvements in flight safety occur, not wearing a nomex suit to fly your Pa 28 for a local bimble.....
However as Genghis says it is your decision. I would say that you should put it on when you get into the airplane and take it off when you get out. Wearing it around the flying club will invite (deserved IMO) ridicule. I would also say that IMO in the context of normal GA flying 80 % of the value of a full suit can be achieved simply by wearing a set of Nomex back/leather palm gloves. Protecting your hands will allow you to touch a hot switch/control/structure which could make the difference in fighting a cockpit fire or mean the difference of escaping or being trapped in a crashed burning airplane. In the meantime it gives you a good grip when your hands are sweaty.
I would also ask an open ended question. Are you doing everything you could to avoid the accident in the first place? That is do you follow a regular program of recurrent training, practice checklist discipline, understand the aircraft systems, study the safety bulletins and learn what not to do by studying accident reports etc etc etc. Those are IMO the areas where true improvements in flight safety occur, not wearing a nomex suit to fly your Pa 28 for a local bimble.....
Last edited by Big Pistons Forever; 31st Jul 2012 at 21:11.
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I have an old USAF Nomex flight suit (CWU-27), and besides the advantages listed by Genghis, have also noticed that it keeps me warm in cold weather without making me sweat when it's hot, and it's also dirt-repellent - I remember helping someone drag rusty and muddy pipes to clear up some extra space on the airfield, making a mental note to take the suit home for washing, and then seeing no trace of that rust and dirt on it a couple of hours later.
I also wear the Nomex Flying suit to fly at my club, I fly C150/152, C172, PA28 PA28 Arrow T. & fly in other aircraft.
Some take the piss!! Thats thier look out.
I have my frequencies on my left knee pad, My airfeild information Hobbs & flying times on my Right Knee pad. Landing charts for airfields visiting in the knee pad pockets along with aircraft Check lists.
Also i don't like loose aticles like coins, keys & phones in unzipped pockets which is where the breast pockets come in handy on the flight suits.
I also wear leather flying gloves, i think protection from fire as well as other peoples germs from thier hands is a must. (some people don't wash hands after bog visits & also sneeze & wipe thier germs on the controls)
as some one else has said wear what you want.
Some take the piss!! Thats thier look out.
I have my frequencies on my left knee pad, My airfeild information Hobbs & flying times on my Right Knee pad. Landing charts for airfields visiting in the knee pad pockets along with aircraft Check lists.
Also i don't like loose aticles like coins, keys & phones in unzipped pockets which is where the breast pockets come in handy on the flight suits.
I also wear leather flying gloves, i think protection from fire as well as other peoples germs from thier hands is a must. (some people don't wash hands after bog visits & also sneeze & wipe thier germs on the controls)
as some one else has said wear what you want.
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I'm with BPF on this. I wear one for vintage, open cockpit and aerobatics flying. The risks are a bit higher in these environments, and the need to manage loose articles is greater. For basic spam can and closed cockpit bimbles I don't. IMO it looks a bit pretentious.
Of half a dozen flying accidents happening reasonably locally, only one involved fire and the occupant was unaffected (by the fire at least). I've seen more vehicles on fire on the road, but I don't wear a nomex suit to drive to work either...
Of half a dozen flying accidents happening reasonably locally, only one involved fire and the occupant was unaffected (by the fire at least). I've seen more vehicles on fire on the road, but I don't wear a nomex suit to drive to work either...
Last edited by fwjc; 1st Aug 2012 at 05:08.
I have one which I bought for aerobatics, where all the zippable pockets are very handy. I often wear it for other flights, just because it's so handy. Wearing light-coloured summer clothes for flying, you can be just about sure to end up with grease stains somewhere. WIth the flying suit, who cares. I feel a bit awkward going to the supermarket on the way home, but I've kind of got over that. As Genghis says, you cxan always take a change of clothes if you're going to work or meeting people afterwards.
I got mine from flyingsuits.com.
I got mine from flyingsuits.com.
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Flight suit link
I was thinking about this recently. I don't think I'd wear one in a Cessna though. The PA28 with its silly door arrangement doesn't appeal to me at all, but if you like that sort of thing it might be worth wearing one as you're probably less likely to get out in a hurry in one of those.
One thing that occurs to me though is that instructors or other commercial pilots don't wear them for straight and levelish stuff. With their higher number of flying hours you'd think their risk exposure would be higher than the average GA pilot. So why don't they wear them?
That link above, supplies them in black or tan so you don't look like a forces has been, and they do gloves as well. Anyone know a better place to buy from?
I was thinking about this recently. I don't think I'd wear one in a Cessna though. The PA28 with its silly door arrangement doesn't appeal to me at all, but if you like that sort of thing it might be worth wearing one as you're probably less likely to get out in a hurry in one of those.
One thing that occurs to me though is that instructors or other commercial pilots don't wear them for straight and levelish stuff. With their higher number of flying hours you'd think their risk exposure would be higher than the average GA pilot. So why don't they wear them?
That link above, supplies them in black or tan so you don't look like a forces has been, and they do gloves as well. Anyone know a better place to buy from?
Last edited by The500man; 1st Aug 2012 at 11:52. Reason: URL
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You can get Nomex shirts, trousers, polo shirts and all sorts of other goodies.
If you really want to use it, these are probably more appropriate for a bimble in a PA28 than a flying suit!
If you really want to use it, these are probably more appropriate for a bimble in a PA28 than a flying suit!
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I wear nomex for my job, but not for pleasure flying. An old friend crashed and burned in a Kitfox a few years ago. He was wearing nomex plus appropriate underwear, his passenger wasn't. Guess who came off the best???? He never flies without a suit now.
It might be a small possibility, but it COULD be you. Why not don/doff at the aircraft to avoid ridicule?
It might be a small possibility, but it COULD be you. Why not don/doff at the aircraft to avoid ridicule?
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I wear a flying suit where appropriate, for a Pa28 on normal ops I would say a bit over the top! But not going to do any harm.
Go for natural fibres, cotton or wool and avoid like mad most man made fibres, esp nylon and I would consider that a sensible level of precaution.
Go for natural fibres, cotton or wool and avoid like mad most man made fibres, esp nylon and I would consider that a sensible level of precaution.
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I acquired two flight suits (cotton, not Nomex) when I got my PPL (bought one, was given the other- ex mil) 20 years ago.
I wore one once but found it too restrictive and hot and have never worn either again.
I do however always wear long sleeved non-synthetic shirts & trousers, avoid shorts and open sandals whatever the heat, and always wear the ex RAF thin white leather gloves and replace them (I have to buy them now!) whenever the thumb pokes through.(I found the US Nomex gauntlets too thick/insensitive for cockpit use).
That combination takes care of my perception of risk when flying my P28R and I figure in a fire might just protect my fingers long enough to get back down on the ground before I crisp up.
Cusco
I wore one once but found it too restrictive and hot and have never worn either again.
I do however always wear long sleeved non-synthetic shirts & trousers, avoid shorts and open sandals whatever the heat, and always wear the ex RAF thin white leather gloves and replace them (I have to buy them now!) whenever the thumb pokes through.(I found the US Nomex gauntlets too thick/insensitive for cockpit use).
That combination takes care of my perception of risk when flying my P28R and I figure in a fire might just protect my fingers long enough to get back down on the ground before I crisp up.
Cusco
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Thanks for the input: Simply putting the suit on by the aeroplane is a good shout. Alternatively and as suggested, I could consider a more subtle (though expensive) approach:
Lower:
Pioner Nomex Comfort Flame Resistant Cargo Trousers from Greenham [www.greenham.com]
Upper:
Alpinestars Nomex Top - Demon Tweeks
Interesting post from Genghis that leather does a similar job. Therefore:
RAF Leather Flying Gloves
BPF: All emergency checks are committed to memory. PFLs practiced every 6 weeks or so. So are diversions. I do not practice spin recovery however (that is a separate thread).
I must admit, the design of the PA28 access hatch (singular) leaves a lot to be desired...
Lower:
Pioner Nomex Comfort Flame Resistant Cargo Trousers from Greenham [www.greenham.com]
Upper:
Alpinestars Nomex Top - Demon Tweeks
Interesting post from Genghis that leather does a similar job. Therefore:
RAF Leather Flying Gloves
BPF: All emergency checks are committed to memory. PFLs practiced every 6 weeks or so. So are diversions. I do not practice spin recovery however (that is a separate thread).
I must admit, the design of the PA28 access hatch (singular) leaves a lot to be desired...
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There was someone on here a exmil I think pilot.
They got that fed up with the stuff avialble they got a fit for purpose clothes range produced and sold it on the web.
They had stuff like hard baseball caps for head protection.
Cotton cargo pants with sensible pockets.
And natural fibre top halfs.
Unfortuanately can't find the link to them.
They got that fed up with the stuff avialble they got a fit for purpose clothes range produced and sold it on the web.
They had stuff like hard baseball caps for head protection.
Cotton cargo pants with sensible pockets.
And natural fibre top halfs.
Unfortuanately can't find the link to them.
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As above wear what you like and ignore the comments.
But if you are serously intending to protect yourself against fire, don't play at it by wearing only the nomex coveralls.
You will need cotton or nomex underwear and socks and flying boots.
Your head & neck must be protected by a nomex hood, and a bonedome (or leather helmet and flame proof goggles if restricted room in the cabin)
Not much point in protecting your body if your hair is on fire and your eyes are steaming while the skin chars on your face.
In military flying I wore all that lot on every sortie.
In BOAC/BA we wear cotton shirts and polycotton trousers and make damnn sure that every eventuality (and a few others!) are taken account of on every trip.
But if you are serously intending to protect yourself against fire, don't play at it by wearing only the nomex coveralls.
You will need cotton or nomex underwear and socks and flying boots.
Your head & neck must be protected by a nomex hood, and a bonedome (or leather helmet and flame proof goggles if restricted room in the cabin)
Not much point in protecting your body if your hair is on fire and your eyes are steaming while the skin chars on your face.
In military flying I wore all that lot on every sortie.
In BOAC/BA we wear cotton shirts and polycotton trousers and make damnn sure that every eventuality (and a few others!) are taken account of on every trip.
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Interesting conversation this one as I very often jump out of one type wearing a nomex flying suit which I then take off to go flying in another type, I have my reasons however:-
Type 1 is a very cramped tailwheel single seater which is a real handfull on takeoff and landing and will frequently see me doing well in excess of 200mph and pulling a decent amount of +/- G. Inside there are lots of jaggy bits which would easily snag a jumper or damage clothing and I'm sitting with a fuel tank right above my knees. I'm also turning it upside down frequently so I need to make sure all my junk is safely stored, a flight suit with all its pockets is perfect for this.
Type 2 is a nice stable and docile high wing classic which I spend most time flying S&L en route from A to B or in the circuit and probably wont be doing much more than 110mph, its also a doddle to land in most weather and in a forced landing will be going wheels on about 50kts.
Would I go flying in type 2 wearing a nomex suit?, nope, why not? Purely cause I'd get slagged rotten so basically nothing more than peer pressure!
I do think it quite funny however as every day I pass cyclists who look like they are off to the Tour De France and there are many other hobbies people get equally dressed up for. With aviation its the oposite, despite such clothing having a potential safety benefit we are actually encouraged to dress down...
Type 1 is a very cramped tailwheel single seater which is a real handfull on takeoff and landing and will frequently see me doing well in excess of 200mph and pulling a decent amount of +/- G. Inside there are lots of jaggy bits which would easily snag a jumper or damage clothing and I'm sitting with a fuel tank right above my knees. I'm also turning it upside down frequently so I need to make sure all my junk is safely stored, a flight suit with all its pockets is perfect for this.
Type 2 is a nice stable and docile high wing classic which I spend most time flying S&L en route from A to B or in the circuit and probably wont be doing much more than 110mph, its also a doddle to land in most weather and in a forced landing will be going wheels on about 50kts.
Would I go flying in type 2 wearing a nomex suit?, nope, why not? Purely cause I'd get slagged rotten so basically nothing more than peer pressure!
I do think it quite funny however as every day I pass cyclists who look like they are off to the Tour De France and there are many other hobbies people get equally dressed up for. With aviation its the oposite, despite such clothing having a potential safety benefit we are actually encouraged to dress down...
Last edited by Unusual Attitude; 1st Aug 2012 at 12:41.