Nomex flight suits

[BroomstickPilot]

Flying kit.

Hi Guys,

I reckon each pilot has to make a value judgement based on a balance of comfort, practicality, risk and cost.

If all the flying you do is 12 hours a year in a Pa28, then you may as well stick to your third best street clothing, because wherever there are aeroplanes there is also oil, grease, mud and sharp projections. So you don't want to be wearing your Sunday best.

If you fly professionally, the company will probably insist that you wear a natty looking (but cheap) uniform. (One thing that concerns me is the silly uniforms instructors are so often required to wear these days, bearing in mind the inherently hazardous work they do. These uniforms are invariably made of poly-cotton fabrics that, in the event of fire, will melt onto the skin and burn like a torch. (Did we learn nothing from the Falklands War)? Personally, I would give all instructors full Nomex gear.

You also need to take into account the range of weather and temperatures you will be working in. For example, if you are going to fly in sub-zero temperatures, you need a baggy flight suit that can take extra layers underneath.

At the other end of the scale, if you are a military pilot or fly several hundred hours annually, perhaps crop dusting or doing some other hazardous occupation, then you really need the whole works, bone dome perhaps with oxygen mask, leather boots, Nomex grow-bag, scarf, wrist coverings, gloves, socks and underwear.

If you are a private pilot doing low hours, remember that cotton burns like a torch, while wool and silk merely frizzle up and extinguish. So if there's a choice, wear silk or wool in preference to cotton.

If you really like wearing cotton, there is a cotton product called Proban. Hitherto, it has been possible to obtain flying wear made in Proban, but I am not sure about its current availability.

I believe there are also simple, water-based processes you can apply to an existing cotton flight suit that will reduce its flamability. Maybe the cotton trade associations can advise on these.

There is a product called MSI Firecheck that can apparently make cotton fire-resistent, but I know almost nothing about it and don't know whether it is even suitable for use on clothing. There should be details somewhere on the Internet.

'Hope this helps.

BP.

[The500man]

Personally I think anything more than a flight suit, gloves, boots and a helmet is unnecessary. In flight fire that engulfs the cockpit has got be an extremely rare event, so the main consideration when deciding on whether to wear protective clothing or not in my opinion should be based on how easily and how quickly you can get out of your aircraft when it goes up in flames after it's crashed! Nomex protection isn't going to last forever. Making certain you open your doors or jettison the canopy before an emergency landing is probably more likely to save you than protective clothing; with which you're only realistically looking at reducing the severity of burns with short term exposure.

[foxmoth]

If you are a private pilot doing low hours, remember that cotton burns like a torch, while wool and silk merely frizzle up and extinguish. So if there's a choice, wear silk or wool in preference to cotton.

If you really like wearing cotton, there is a cotton product called Proban. Hitherto, it has been possible to obtain flying wear made in Proban, but I am not sure about its current availability.

I believe there are also simple, water-based processes you can apply to an existing cotton flight suit that will reduce its flamability. Maybe the cotton trade associations can advise on these.

There is a product called MSI Firecheck that can apparently make cotton fire-resistent, but I know almost nothing about it and don't know whether it is even suitable for use on clothing. There should be details somewhere on the Internet.

Cotton might burn, though I I would question "like a torch",at least it does not burn into the skin like nylon. MSI Firecheck is used in the film industry and is supposed to be very effective, but washes out so needs reapplying if you wash your kit!

[Jan Olieslagers]

I reckon each pilot has to make a value judgement based on a balance of comfort, practicality, risk and cost.

Don't underestimate the importance of looking smart.

If all the flying you do is 12 hours a year in a Pa28, then you may as well stick to your third best street clothing

That's what I have been doing, and what almost all my club fellows do, even those that do 50 or 100 hours annually. Actually even the instructors show up wearing just jeans and a polo or t-shirt. It is one of the things that make me like this club: no keeping up of appearances.

Before reading this thread, I took dedicated flying clothing for an extravagancy, justified by the a/m desire to look smart. I can't help thinking that white silk scarfs do fall under this category. But I had never realised that flame resistance could be a factor.

Very unwilling to look like trying to look smart, I would perhaps consider clothing that looks casual, i.e. that I could also wear on a visit to the village pub, but that does offer some protection in case of a fire. Any suggestions?

[Grob Queen]

I've thought twice about whether to post on this one...but hey, in for a penny

I wear an RAF gro-bag all the time when flying...but then there isn't the trouble p**s taking with ones peers as the majority of friends at the Club are Gro-bag wearers! Its sensible...its nomex, lightweight, comfortable, arm pocket for pens and chinagraph, other pockets for keys, sunglasses, torch etc etc....mines a FJ type so I have a seperate knee pad, but despite that I wouldn't fly without it. RAF issue leather gloves, boots and socks too. And no, I don't feel a pratt!

...and I drive home in it.....but then around here, no one looks twice at a green (or black) gro-bag ! (Now stands back and awaits flak to fall in my direction )

[jxk]

Harris tweed jacket, grey flannel trousers and trilby hat that is de rigueur!

Not so stupid: lots of pockets in the jacket and trousers, reasonably flame-proof, the hat can be worn both forwards and backwards and with dangling cork used as a AH!

[fwjc]

Grob Queen - that's fine when you're operating in a military environment. When you go to any normal GA airfield, you'll find that the only people wearing gro-bags are the aerobatic lot, as a rule. And they only wear them for aerobatics. Be prepared for funny looks and sniggers at a number of places, some better hidden and polite than others. I remember being shocked when I first joined a civilian club and realised that people just don't wear gro-bags except for specific purpose. But I soon got over it, at about the same time as I got over using a yoke instead of a stick.

It's a personal choice as to what you wear in an aeroplane, but as someone else said, really you should wear a bone dome, gro-bag, gloves, boots and the right undergarments. And while you're at it, how about a parachute? I use all of these for performance aeros. But I wear jeans and t-shirt for straight and level PA28 / Cessna / yawn type flying, and I'm quick to take off the gro-bag as soon as I'm done fun flying.

Someone said never to wear a badge unless you've earned it. This is so true. I have a name badge which is relevant in some circles. But on home turf, where everyone knows me, I never wear it.

[Grob Queen]

Thanks for your advice FWJC...certainly duly noted T'is true, I only have three airfields in my log book thus far two military....and the other being Duxford... and they're pretty used to gro-bags...

I have yet to sample the atmosphere of a GA airfield...

[Genghis the Engineer]

I think that perhaps fwjc overstates it a bit.

At smaller clubs and grass strips a green growbag is neither unusual nor frowned upon - it's just a personal choice.

At a certain type of high-cost-medium-quality GA club people get arsey about all sorts of things that really don't matter. They can however often be places to do ad-hoc bits of renting or training, so you just live with it.

For example, I flew as a sole or part owner at Popham and another nearby smaller strip for a decade or so, where my growbag wearing habits never got even mentioned. Flying at a commercial school elsewhere in similar aeroplanes, but for my CPL, anything that didn't resemble either a baby airline pilot uniform, got regarded with mild ridicule. In the latter case, I told them I didn't care and why I wore it, and they heard me out and accepted it.

Either way, don't be pretentious, don't mind explaining your reasons politely, and people will get over it.

But GQ - do get out and see some club environment flying. At the very least go to the LAA rally in September.

G

[fwjc]

Excellent suggestion Genghis. Maybe see you there?

And you may be right, but you might be surprised at how often comments are passed behind people's backs, even if it appears that nobody has batted an eyelid. It's definitely true that different places tolerate / accept their use to widely varying degrees.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Not sure which, or how many, days - but I have every intention of being at the LAA rally.

Worth a PPrune get-together slot - say a particular time and place each day at the rally? [a corner of the Aviator hotel bar might work ]

I'm sure people say all sorts of things behind my back, and on occasion across bulletin boards and in magazine editorials. On the other hand, I'm also pretty sure that most of it is about other things than my taste in flying clothing!

G

[Runaway Gun]

Food for thought

So, some people would rather bow to peer pressure and p1ss taking and not wear suitable safety clothing.... Are those same cheeky b@stards also going to make fun of you if you turn up to the flying field with visible burn scars?

Tony crashed his Bronco at Kemble recently, and he is having quite a hard time in hospital and is still getting skin grafts. However he was wearing a helmet, nomex, and some cotton undergarments - without which his injuries would definitely be much worse. Just maybe this saved his life.

Whilst on this subject, why do pilots insist on wearing those flammable/melting reflective fluro 'safety' vests whilst still inside the aircraft? It not only reflects making instruments to see - and will make you cry when it melts onto you.

[Big Pistons Forever]

[QUOTE=Runaway Gun;7338198

Tony crashed his Bronco at Kemble recently, and he is having quite a hard time in hospital and is still getting skin grafts. However he was wearing a helmet, nomex, and some cotton undergarments - without which his injuries would definitely be much worse. Just maybe this saved his life.

[/QUOTE]

I would suggest that flying a high performance warbird at an airshow is at a whole different level of risk then flying a Pa 28 on a local flight. A helmet, full nomex flight suit and boots is an entirely appropriate response to that risk for a Bronco but overkill for a Pa28

This discussion reminds me of the thread a 10hr PPL wrote about how to deal with jammed flight controls. He was not very receptive when it was pointed out that there were many much more likely emergencies that he should achieve proficiency at before worrying about the jammed control scenario.

Perhaps I am jaded by the fact that everyone I have ever seen wearing a nomex flightsuit in your average Cessna/Piper was a "look at me" poseur rather then somebody who was wearing it as part of a well thought out holistic risk reduction strategy that started with a pilots determination to attain and maintain high levels of personal flying skills for both normal and abnormal situations.

[Runaway Gun]

BPE, I see your point, however I would like to amplify that wearing meltable clothing (such as Nylon and Polyester) is an unnecessary risk that might mean your difference between life and death.

The same goes for people wearing Nomex Flightsuits OVER Nylon/Polyester clothing - it might keep them clean, but the heat will still melt those fashionable items into your skin for life.

I recently asked a pilot why her leather flying gloves were in her flightsuit pocket whilst she flew a warbird. She said she only wore them at airshows! I pointed out that they might be protective on every flight.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Originally Posted by Runaway Gun

BPE, I see your point, however I would like to amplify that wearing meltable clothing (such as Nylon and Polyester) is an unnecessary risk that might mean your difference between life and death.
.

Yes but where do you stop ? Wearing a parachute on your local flight in a Cessna or Piper "could" save your life if the flight had a midair and broke apart in the air. So should I wear my emergency parachute in a Piper ? I think not but I absolutely wear it in my Nanchang or the other warbirds I fly. My only point is actions taken should be commensurate with actual risk.

My personal feeling is that I think the original poster is ascribing an unrealistic level of actual benefit a nomex suit will provide in reducing actual risk to any of his flights.

Like I said in an earlier thread I think simply wearing nomex/leather fireproof flying gloves would provide almost the same benefit as a full suit as it would allow full use of your hands when operating the seatbelt release, door handles etc that may be too hot to touch with bare hands.....and in the meantime it gives you a better grip on the yoke and controls if your hands are sweaty.

However I sure won't say "don't wear a nomex flightsuit", just be sure you are doing it for the right reasons.......

[what next]

Hello!

Yes but where do you stop ?

This would be exactly my point. By far the most likely cause of death in any accident with aircraft (and road vehicles) are traumata, especially head injuries. So wearing a helmet would be the best measure to increase the odds of survival. But honestly, who does wear a helmet in a C172 or Pa28? And what about the passengers? Do they not have equal rights to survive a crash? (The same applies to the Nomex suit in my opinion: Either everybody on board wears one or nobody.)

In accidents involving fire, the most frequent cause of death is lung damage from inhaling flames, smoke and fumes. To protect oneself against that risk either breathing oxygen under pressure - military style - or PBEs (portable breating equipment) are the only feasible measures. Both are not suitable for single engine aircraft. It is _almost_ impossible to don a PBE inside the cabin of our light bizjets (I know because we have to train once per year) and absolutely impossible in the confined space of a Pa28. In my personal opinion, protecting your body against flames but not the much more vulnerable lungs does not make too much sense.

That said, I must confess that I too own a Nomex suit. I bought it on eBay (a grey ex german naval aviation suit for 20 Euros...) when I was involved in aerial work some years ago. We sprayed silver-iodide into CB clouds to prevent the formation of large hailstones. That chemical is only soluble in acetone (extremely inflammable) and leaves very nasty and almost unremoveable stains on every material that it comes in contact with (including skin and clothes and aeroplanes...). A Nomex suit seemed to be the right way to dress when handling that stuff. But I never flew in it, preferred to take it off before boarding the aircraft. Wouldn't have had any chance to survive a combined acetone and avgas fire in case of a crash anyway...

Happy landings,
max

[Genghis the Engineer]

Look at it another way - why NOT wear a nomex suit, or failing that natural fibres?

It's comfortable, has lots of useful pockets, and keeps grease stains off your normal clothes.

Similarly thin leather or nomex gloves make the controls easier to operate the controls when your hands get a bit sweaty.

Neither is fantastically expensive, pllus both, should you have a very bad day, add something to your safety.

G

[n5296s]

Simply putting the suit on by the aeroplane is a good shout.

The problem I see with that, is that if perchance you are stopped while driving to/from the airport, how are you going to explain your lack of trousers? Seriously, while taking trousers on/off in the car is certainly possible, I'm not sure I see the point.

I think this must be a UK/US thing. Many (though not all) of my instructors wear flight suits. As Genghis says, they're extremely practical, they keep grease and much off your normal clothes, you can leave pens, torches/flashlights, emergency escape hammers, ... in the pockets. Maybe in the UK people worry more about looking silly, "what will the neighbours say?" Here nobody gives a r@t$ar$3.

As it happens, right now I'm off to fly the Citabria, mainly for tailwheel currency but I'll probably also do some light acro. I'll fly over there in my 182. And I'll drive to the airport in my car. On the way home, I need to stop at the drugstore. Why would I do anything other than put on my flightsuit at home, in comfort, and wear it til I get back? I'm not trying to impress anyone, just keep my life simple.

Incidentally if you want another reason/excuse for wearing a flight suit, I noticed that they sell them at Mr X, San Francisco's premier fetish gear shop. So you can always pretend you're on your way to a fetish party (just saying...).

[jxk]

Do they do Nomex in pink?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Originally Posted by jxk

Do they do Nomex in pink?

The American desert uniforms aren't far off to be honest.

CWU-27/P Flight Suit | Gibson & Barnes - Premiere Flyer & Aviation Outfitters

(But don't bother thinking of dyeing nomex, just doesn't work - I've tried.)

G