Helicopter PPL

[Pittsextra]

I know there is a Rotorhead section but I think they might believe me to be taking the p155..

So I fly fixed wing and would like to try a helicopter but would like to know people's views on which type because my view (all be it a very inexperienced one) of stuff like R22/R44 is they look pretty dangerous.

I know the internet is a dangerous thing sometimes in that you can find a view to support any notion but it seems that there have been some fatalities in R22/44 with very experienced commercial pilots on board.

Have i missed something and if not are there any safe types to kick off a PPL (H) with??

[scrambled]

Wannabee chopper driver

PM me and I'll try & put you in touch with an S2A man who tried this route.

[abgd]

I know the internet is a dangerous thing sometimes in that you can find a view to support any notion but it seems that there have been some fatalities in R22/44 with very experienced commercial pilots on board.

And Scott Crossfield (X15 pilot) recently died in a Cessna.

[AdamFrisch]

I would agree with the Schweizer 300.

I started rotorcraft training almost 20 years ago on the R22, but never felt comfortable. So switched to the Hughes 300 (as they were called then). Got about 25hrs in it before I ran out of money. Never took my license, but recently did a few hours here in California to see if I still could remember how they flew (I could barely hover... Great fun, and I'll get my rating at some point.

The 300 looks flimsy, but it's actually built like a tank when you get close to it. Lots of cast aluminium bracing, oleo shocked landing gears and sturdy stuff. They can take some abuse. They're slow and noisy, but they're very controllable and fly well. Good training platform with good autorotational capabilities. The fully articulated head as compared to the R22's semi-rigid makes for a better training platform most instructors would agree on, I think.

[Pilot DAR]

After having a fixed wing PPL for 27 years, I went and got my rotorwing PPL. I chose the Sw 300, as I had flown an R22, and we did not like each other. If you can afford it, and find one, an EC 120 is also a delight to fly. I have never flown an R44, though people I trust say very good things about them.

Interestingly, shortly after earning my PPL on the Sw 300, I had occasion to fly an MD 500. After a half an hour, the other pilot asked how many hours I had in 500's. I told him "half an hour". He commented that I flew it very well. I told him it was 'cause it flew the same as the 300, other than learning the engine (which I knew from fixed wing flying). After a few more hours in the 500, and some amazing back country flying, he type endorsed me in the 500.

Jet Rangers are also a delight to fly, but require a lot of practice to fly really well....

AS 350's require a lot of practice to fly really well....

Go for it, you'll be very happy that you did!

[Pittsextra]

Thanks for all the help and hey re: the pranging a Cessna, etc. I hear you. Like I tried to suggest in my original post, I wasn't trying to turn things into a p155ing contest but just thought asking a bunch of experienced pilots a view was as useful use of a forum as any?

This however was less a fixed v helicopter but more a decision on which helicopter. Like I'd said the initial view seemed the R22/44 screened poorly, unless I'd missed something. Happy to be educated if there is an alternative view.

Moving beyond the PPL do SW300 / Guimbal offer any benefit - thinking that both are 2 seaters and ease of moving beyond..

Cheers.

[Senior Pilot]

Originally Posted by Pittsextra

I know there is a Rotorhead section but I think they might believe me to be taking the p155..

Pitts,

Why? We have a wealth of knowledge on RH, and your question is not at all unusual. If you try Searching for R22, you'll find all sorts of threads on this topic, such as What would you choose, R22 or 300cbi... or go to the Sticky at the top of Rotorheads and find a number of links to the advice you need, including Which is the best helicopter for training?

See you on Rotorheads soon

[Pittsextra]

Hi Senior Pilot,

Thanks I'll run through the FAQ's etc. I'm not sure if its because a lot of you are professional pilots and been there done that, or if in the course of time all the issues have been ironed out and I've missed them but some the Robinson shunts really seemed a worry; what I didn't want the Rotorhead guys to think is that I'm baiting Robinson pilots, etc!!

As you can see even from the post here - people get sensitive when you suggest that XYZ could be more dangerous!

Obviously there is no accounting for people doing stupid things either with the controls or ignoring the weather but some these R22/44 shunts seem beyond that - or at least whilst I can find the report on the initial shunt I can't seem to find any concluding data. In particular the R22 accident G-PUDD and the German R44 accidents of D-HTOP, D-HPHS, and D-HFSD - all seem to be lost in similar circumstances, and a NTSB report.

http://www.rotorshop.com/sir9603.pdf

I know there was some outcome that suggested specific R22/44 training but still some of those aircraft lost were with pilots with reasonable time on type...

[muffin]

Pittsextra

I would endorse what Senior Pilot said. I am just a PPL(H) flying an R22 and I have frequented Rotorheads for many years. There are lots of pros on there and a huge amount of experience but they don't bite and you will get lots of very good advice.

The R22 can be tricky, but if you are aware of its pitfalls it is a real fun way to get rotary experience.

[007helicopter]

Yes there is a lot of Robbo bashing going on but I personally find the R22 to small even though I did my PPL on it. The R44 is great if you could afford to learn on one and has a much better safety record than the R22.

The R22 safety record has improved due to design and training improvements and I believe can be flown safely (even though I choose to never fly one again)

The R66 has had 2 fatal's in less than a fleet of 100.

In terms of high hour Helicopter Pilots they kill them selves on all types the same as low hour guys.

Go on Rotorheads and I think if you are sincere and genuine you will get some good feed back as a wealth of experience.

[007helicopter]

Also if you can learn on what you eventually want to fly that is even better, take into account availability for hire in the future, you can easily rent an R22 or R44 anywhere in the world.

You also here about more Robinson accidents because there are so many compared to any other helicopter.

[John R81]

I am a PPL(H) and I own an EC120 and an R44, and regularlyfly both of them. My daughter is training for her ATPL in an R44.

The question “which is worst” is a constant theme on theRotorheads section. If you analyse the views you will most likely conclude thatpeople are very happy with whichever machine they have chosen, and believe(with a passion) that anyone who made a different choice must be bonkers. If you consider that more flight schools useR22s than any other machine, then you will see that a very large number of currentprivate and commercial helicopter pilots began with the R22. That does not inany way mean that you should. The machine is not inherently unsafe but perhapsyou like the look or feel of another option, or it makes better financialsense; whatever. If you ask those who trained on R22 they might say it madethem faster to react, and therefore better pilots.

You can (in theory, I suppose) train on any helicopter – UK militaryused to use Gazelles as a basic trainer, and I know someone who trained on aJet Ranger, and a few private pilots who started with an EC120, which is (a)expensive (b) requires a dispensation from the CAA (more than 4 seats, you see)and (c) those that don’t like the EC120 would say it is not a good machine fora low-hour pilot because in certain circumstances it is “less forgiving” than[insert your favoured make]. That (c) view did not influence their choice.

In reality all helicopters are “unforgiving” in their own specialpart of the flight envelope. All themachines have their limitations. Learn them and stay within them. Once you gooutside you are now a “test pilot” for that flight.

I think the beast advice I have seen here so far (personalview, of course) is to work out where you might train, find out what machine optionsyou have and go from there.
If you intend to take more than one passenger,and can afford the cost, then train on the machine that you want to fly. More time on type is valuable. If cost is anoption, then training in a 2-seater and later doing a conversion to a largermachine that you do want to fly MIGHT be cheaper; but it might not. It would be cheaper if you are graduating toa 4-seat AVGAS machine (like an R44). Ifyou do intend to fly a jet powered machine like an EC120 (just for example)check out the insurance restrictions at the club you will rent from / theinsurer you would use for your own machine. If they ask for 50 hrs on typebefore you can fly solo, then learning on a (cheaper) 2-seater with a 5-10 hrconversion course will leave you paying for a safety pilot for the next 40+hours; learning on the EC120 MIGHT mean that you can fly it without a safetypilot much sooner. Only you can do themaths.

So: come over to Rotorheads and ask that question - a verbal handgrenade like that will create pages of argument. So much fun

[007helicopter]

I am a PPL(H) and I own an EC120 and an R44

Now that is just greedy

(PS I did a few hours on your previous 120)

[John R81]

I was told as a youngster.....

Life is a competition; whoever dies with the most toys wins!


Seriously, though, I make better margin on the EC120 than the R44. More time sold on the R44, but the maintenance costs are higher.

Currently considering whether to increase the fleet with another 120 or to look at H500s - there a re a couple available now at rather good prices!

[Swiss Cheese]

PPL H

I was one of the lucky ones to do the PPL H on the EC120.

Not keen on R22 at all. R44 is much better, with the fuel bladder retrofit.

If you can afford to do the R44 all the way through, then great. Ditto EC120.

John, I will fly your 500 if you get it ( I think I know which one is for sale)!


James

[Droopystop]

I'm a professional helicopter pilot. I learnt to fly on the R22, but got time on the 44 and 120 too. Basic points: Pilots tend to kill themselves rather than being killed by their aircraft. R22s are surprisingly robust aircraft, but it has to be flown the Robinson way. I would say that there is nothing wrong learning to fly the R22 providing you get quality instruction and you are disciplined in your flying. This is also true for any helicopter really and especially so for a fixed wing pilot.