Advice on buying a aircraft
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It always seems to me that people make up a budget beforehand that they then make the plane fit. And that's where the disappointments come.
Airplanes that are for most parts 30 years or older, don't really behave exactly predictable. Also, more often than not, if a plane is for sale it means the previous owner hasn't been flying it as much as he should and it's been sitting etc. Planes break down when they don't fly. They need to be flown regularly, which is why I've always advocated not to shy away from higher time airplanes.
When I bought my plane a wise man said "you're going to end up spending as much as you did buying her the first year just to work out all the gremlins". I laughed. Of course not. Impossible. What a madman!
A year later that was exactly, to the dollar, what it ended up being.
But since then, in over 70hrs, there basically hasn't been a single squawk. I've done at least three plus 1000nm cross countries in adverse conditions, one over 3000nm. Nothing - she's been behaving flawlessly. I know it won't last, but for every hour I fly that initial spending gets diluted.
My point is, don't do budgets. They won't work. Buy the plane, make sure you have as much as you bought it for on top to sort everything else out in the beginning and iron out kinks. Then pay and play it by ear as you go along.
For a big twin I pay $92/month in tie down. I pay $2000/year for insurance. Those are my only two fixed costs.
Airplanes that are for most parts 30 years or older, don't really behave exactly predictable. Also, more often than not, if a plane is for sale it means the previous owner hasn't been flying it as much as he should and it's been sitting etc. Planes break down when they don't fly. They need to be flown regularly, which is why I've always advocated not to shy away from higher time airplanes.
When I bought my plane a wise man said "you're going to end up spending as much as you did buying her the first year just to work out all the gremlins". I laughed. Of course not. Impossible. What a madman!
A year later that was exactly, to the dollar, what it ended up being.
But since then, in over 70hrs, there basically hasn't been a single squawk. I've done at least three plus 1000nm cross countries in adverse conditions, one over 3000nm. Nothing - she's been behaving flawlessly. I know it won't last, but for every hour I fly that initial spending gets diluted.
My point is, don't do budgets. They won't work. Buy the plane, make sure you have as much as you bought it for on top to sort everything else out in the beginning and iron out kinks. Then pay and play it by ear as you go along.
For a big twin I pay $92/month in tie down. I pay $2000/year for insurance. Those are my only two fixed costs.
Last edited by AdamFrisch; 29th Jun 2012 at 15:37.
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My point is, don't do budgets. They won't work. Buy the plane, make sure you have as much as you bought it for on top to sort everything else out in the beginning and iron out kinks. Then pay and play it by ear as you go along.
Especially this chap who is not going to get more than a high-end windsurfing kite for the £13k.
13k is way too low for outright ownership of anything other than absolutely rock bottom stuff e.g.
whose bird pulling power is going to be somewhere below zero - as evidenced by this
At 13k I would look for shares, or knock some like minded heads together and form a syndicate around something that can go places. This chap talks of going abroad; you need something reasonable...
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Peter, you bought a new plane and there a budget makes much more sense as you start, supposedly, from a squawk free, zero time platform. But a 30-50 year old plane with journeyman maintenance is very hard to budget.
I think the questions to be asked are: Can I afford to buy this plane? Can I set aside at least as much as I bought it for, for maintenance the first year? In that case, I think it's viable. So this gentleman should buy the aircraft for £13K, but make sure he has another £13K either saved up, or readily accessible over the next 6 months.
I think the questions to be asked are: Can I afford to buy this plane? Can I set aside at least as much as I bought it for, for maintenance the first year? In that case, I think it's viable. So this gentleman should buy the aircraft for £13K, but make sure he has another £13K either saved up, or readily accessible over the next 6 months.
I think you're being a little simplistic, Adam. Every aircraft is different; not all are going to be in such poor shape that you need to pour your purchase price into it again. An old, thirsty twin is rather a special case compared to something like a run-of-the-mill C172 that has been well cared for. You just have to do your pre-buy checks carefully.
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My point was - if it's well cared for, you won't get it for £13K. If it's not, then you'll have to spend it as you go along. You either pay up front, or later, with airplanes. There are no real shortcuts or "good deals" to be had with them. You'll end up paying one way or the other.
Last edited by AdamFrisch; 29th Jun 2012 at 16:27.
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Quote "Unusual Attitude Is it just me or does that look quite fun? 
"
It's just you! I know your taste!
Just the job to take the family abroad for the weekend.
D.O.
" It's just you! I know your taste!
Just the job to take the family abroad for the weekend.
D.O.
Last edited by dont overfil; 29th Jun 2012 at 17:28.
A question to ask yourself - how often do you expect, really, to fly with the family?
An enjoyable 2-seater on a permit, such as the Luscombe above - or many other possibilities - will for most of us give many hours of inexpensive and enjoyable solo or 2-up flying, then hire something like a C172 for the half dozen hours per year you'll find you actually want a 4-seater.
I would also however agree with those saying "go for a share". Owning around a sixth or eighth share will massively cut your risk and fixed outgoings, and if anything increase the availability compared to spending a lot of your free time looking after a sole-owned asset.
G
(Owned shares from half to twentieth in 7 aeroplanes, over about 20 years.)
An enjoyable 2-seater on a permit, such as the Luscombe above - or many other possibilities - will for most of us give many hours of inexpensive and enjoyable solo or 2-up flying, then hire something like a C172 for the half dozen hours per year you'll find you actually want a 4-seater.
I would also however agree with those saying "go for a share". Owning around a sixth or eighth share will massively cut your risk and fixed outgoings, and if anything increase the availability compared to spending a lot of your free time looking after a sole-owned asset.
G
(Owned shares from half to twentieth in 7 aeroplanes, over about 20 years.)
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Crash one
I think your attitude to those who maintain C of A aircraft requires a little adjustment, it is not a case of simply throwing your cheque book after the aircraft and being ripped off as your post suggests.
The fact is that no one in the GA maintenance world is making much money (except the CAA) by the time the overheads are covered and the cost of having someone maintain your aircraft be it permit or C of A will be the same for the labour if you are getting a skilled service.
I think your attitude to those who maintain C of A aircraft requires a little adjustment, it is not a case of simply throwing your cheque book after the aircraft and being ripped off as your post suggests.
The fact is that no one in the GA maintenance world is making much money (except the CAA) by the time the overheads are covered and the cost of having someone maintain your aircraft be it permit or C of A will be the same for the labour if you are getting a skilled service.
I am not suggesting that they are all a rip off. Nor did I suggest that it is the org that gets the money. I am well aware that a piece of paper can cost ££££, & CofA approval etc.
What I am suggesting is that the CofA system is far more expensive than the permit system for the same result. I am an engineer (toolmaker) not an aeromech, but I "understand" & will not believe that aeroengineering is any more difficult than "my" kind. The CAA charging vast sums of money to "certify" everything & everybody does not make the actual work carried out any better.
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like what Ghengis said........ there's a nice-looking Avid on fleabay, right now.
folding wings, trailer, water-cooled Rotax, ground-adjustable prop.....etc.
Take it home, bung it in the garage. realistically, 1 hour to reassemble and pre-flight once you get to your aerodrome.
all sounds good to me and would leave a healthy margin for 4-seater rental.
(and who's to say the rest of the family would want to accompany you?- been there with the boating job, good thing it was small/light enough for solo use! )
folding wings, trailer, water-cooled Rotax, ground-adjustable prop.....etc.
Take it home, bung it in the garage. realistically, 1 hour to reassemble and pre-flight once you get to your aerodrome.
all sounds good to me and would leave a healthy margin for 4-seater rental.
(and who's to say the rest of the family would want to accompany you?- been there with the boating job, good thing it was small/light enough for solo use! )
Moderator
What I am suggesting is that the CofA system is far more expensive than the permit system for the same result.
Though I see the point you are trying to make, the "result" is not the same...
Remind yourself that your C of A'd aircraft with the G on the side, is entitled by ICAO agreement to fly just about anywhere on earth. Now I understand that this international recognition is of greatly reduced interest to many "permit" type aircraft owners, and that IS the distinction that everyone needs to be aware of.
I'm sure that from the UK, reaching many other nations in a GA aircraft is a practical possibility. Here in Canada, for 99% of GA aircraft its Canada, USA, and for a few, some Carribean islands, or Central America. Thus, in Canada, many aircraft owners (with eligible types) will surrender their C of A for a flight permit, and a more simple "system". In Canada, it's called "Owner Maintenance". I have one of my two aircraft entering this category now. But doing so strips it's international acceptance, and I have no expectation this aircraft will ever be welcomed into another nation.
That is simply because that other nation has no idea to what standard that aircraft is maintained, and has no international obligation to accept it. When you maintain an aircraft within the ICAO system, you're paying for it (in layers of paperwork, and mandatory inspections), but you're retaining a privilage of international acceptance. It's up to the owner to understand the difference in systems....
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Pilot Dar
I take your point ref same result. All I was saying is that you have an a/c that is acceptably serviceable under both systems depending on what you want to do with it. If the OP wants to fly as cheaply as possible then, as I stated in my first post, VFR daytime may be ok. I am sorry I did not mention UK airspace only. But if the OP wishes to investigate the LAA, it's aims, functions, restrictions etc then it may be enough for him. LAA Permit a/c are being accepted in parts of europe & the LAA are trying to improve on that. But I agree there are restrictions ref the rest of the world, public transport, aerial work etc.
I am also well aware that the paper pile has to weigh about the same as the a/c. Which is where most of the cost comes from.
I take your point ref same result. All I was saying is that you have an a/c that is acceptably serviceable under both systems depending on what you want to do with it. If the OP wants to fly as cheaply as possible then, as I stated in my first post, VFR daytime may be ok. I am sorry I did not mention UK airspace only. But if the OP wishes to investigate the LAA, it's aims, functions, restrictions etc then it may be enough for him. LAA Permit a/c are being accepted in parts of europe & the LAA are trying to improve on that. But I agree there are restrictions ref the rest of the world, public transport, aerial work etc.
I am also well aware that the paper pile has to weigh about the same as the a/c. Which is where most of the cost comes from.
Last edited by Crash one; 1st Jul 2012 at 09:05.
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I have owned three aircraft and owned them totally myself 'cos that's my way.
BUT...even if you can afford it I would recommend sharing the damn thing with another for moral support, there is nothing so lonely as trying to sort out aircraft things on your own. Someone to talk to, to discuss things with and to share decisions is worth a thousand words from others.
BUT...even if you can afford it I would recommend sharing the damn thing with another for moral support, there is nothing so lonely as trying to sort out aircraft things on your own. Someone to talk to, to discuss things with and to share decisions is worth a thousand words from others.
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I have owned three aircraft and owned them totally myself 'cos that's my way.
BUT...even if you can afford it I would recommend sharing the damn thing with another for moral support, there is nothing so lonely as trying to sort out aircraft things on your own. Someone to talk to, to discuss things with and to share decisions is worth a thousand words from others.
BUT...even if you can afford it I would recommend sharing the damn thing with another for moral support, there is nothing so lonely as trying to sort out aircraft things on your own. Someone to talk to, to discuss things with and to share decisions is worth a thousand words from others.
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*
Hi guys,
*
interesting thread, this!
Thought I´d give you guys my perspective, albeit from an entirely different country / situation!
*
I am member of a club, of which the mechanic is very knowleagable and helpful when it comes to repairs & advice with regards to spare parts etc. He must know all the US spare-part sites on the internet because he always finds the weirdest links to check valves, brake cilinders, adjustable prop parts, noise filters etc etc, you name it; and for decent prizes!
*
Being club members we do help each other sometimes when it comes to bringing stuff in from the U.S for instance; or even borrowing parts from each other when the one plane isn´t going anywhere, anyways! For instance, recently I lent my radiator to a fellow member, just for a 2 day trip.
We are all Rotax-powered, you see.........
*
I agree that it would be lonely to do it all “on my Todd” so to speak; I for one, greatly appreciate all the advice I can get!
I agree with this wholeheartedly! At our club, we all have and run our own planes; why? Because it´s still SO affordable where we are!
I guess some people share larger Cessna´s etc here, but as far as the LSA go; they are all privately owned.
For US$ 2,- a US gallon of fuel you can still go places, and you can actually pick up an airframe and maintain it up to the authorities´ standards for not that much at all; relatively speaking.
And then the hundreds of little airfields we can choose from, but that is for another thread.
*
If your budget is an issue, (and I know mine would be, in the UK!!) by all means share!
Share the burden, share the headaches............and plan your trips well, considering* your fellow comrades` needs!
*
I personally love the fact that I own an aircraft! She´s my baby, the mechanic finished it all in my taste, I´m still taking plenty of pictures each trip, and I´m not done kitting her out completely just yet! (Slipper clutch is next on the list, for instance).
Are their better aircraft out there? Sure! But this one happens to be mine, it fulfills all my flying-needs and that gives me a satisfaction that I don´t think I would get renting or sharing.
*
If you can afford it........having your own plane is really a pretty cool thing!
*
Cheers from down South somewhere,
*
###Ultra Long Hauler###
Hi guys,
*
interesting thread, this!
Thought I´d give you guys my perspective, albeit from an entirely different country / situation!
*
I am member of a club, of which the mechanic is very knowleagable and helpful when it comes to repairs & advice with regards to spare parts etc. He must know all the US spare-part sites on the internet because he always finds the weirdest links to check valves, brake cilinders, adjustable prop parts, noise filters etc etc, you name it; and for decent prizes!
*
Being club members we do help each other sometimes when it comes to bringing stuff in from the U.S for instance; or even borrowing parts from each other when the one plane isn´t going anywhere, anyways! For instance, recently I lent my radiator to a fellow member, just for a 2 day trip.
We are all Rotax-powered, you see.........
*
I agree that it would be lonely to do it all “on my Todd” so to speak; I for one, greatly appreciate all the advice I can get!
I guess some people share larger Cessna´s etc here, but as far as the LSA go; they are all privately owned.
For US$ 2,- a US gallon of fuel you can still go places, and you can actually pick up an airframe and maintain it up to the authorities´ standards for not that much at all; relatively speaking.
And then the hundreds of little airfields we can choose from, but that is for another thread.
*
If your budget is an issue, (and I know mine would be, in the UK!!) by all means share!
Share the burden, share the headaches............and plan your trips well, considering* your fellow comrades` needs!
*
I personally love the fact that I own an aircraft! She´s my baby, the mechanic finished it all in my taste, I´m still taking plenty of pictures each trip, and I´m not done kitting her out completely just yet! (Slipper clutch is next on the list, for instance).
Are their better aircraft out there? Sure! But this one happens to be mine, it fulfills all my flying-needs and that gives me a satisfaction that I don´t think I would get renting or sharing.
*
If you can afford it........having your own plane is really a pretty cool thing!
*
Cheers from down South somewhere,
*
###Ultra Long Hauler###
