Advice on buying a aircraft
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Advice on buying a aircraft
Hi all
I know there are already a few similar questions already posted on here about aircraft ownership but here's another
I'm currently flying around once or twice a month
Usually the flights are only local and lasting around an hour. Im seriously wanting to buy my own aircraft
Ultimately a four seater to enable me to take my family up.
Currently my airfield only hires there planes for hourly slots
I would like to go on the odd long trip say jersey or even Spain
How does insurance work ie hull and liability are they both compulsory?
Do I go for permit to fly or a Cessna 172 perhaps
What are the average costs
How many hours does an engine usually last before it has to be repłacd
I'm fine with renting but I like the idea Of owning so I can just jump in and go and stop over a night Without worrying about getting the aircraft back
Thanks
I know there are already a few similar questions already posted on here about aircraft ownership but here's another
I'm currently flying around once or twice a month
Usually the flights are only local and lasting around an hour. Im seriously wanting to buy my own aircraft
Ultimately a four seater to enable me to take my family up.
Currently my airfield only hires there planes for hourly slots
I would like to go on the odd long trip say jersey or even Spain
How does insurance work ie hull and liability are they both compulsory?
Do I go for permit to fly or a Cessna 172 perhaps
What are the average costs
How many hours does an engine usually last before it has to be repłacd
I'm fine with renting but I like the idea Of owning so I can just jump in and go and stop over a night Without worrying about getting the aircraft back
Thanks
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LAA Permit would be the cheapest option but depends on what you want to do, VFR daytime only? or Airways £££.
Do your own maintenance signed off by a grown up, or chuck it in the door & throw your cheque book in after it?
Do your own maintenance signed off by a grown up, or chuck it in the door & throw your cheque book in after it?
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Aerofoil1
The Cessna 172 is a good place to good place to start the search but I would not go buying a Cessna 100 series aircraft until we see how this SID,s thing pans out.
I take it from the post that you made you need to have the four seats full, this means for all practical purposes you are unlikly to be able to go very far with any less that a 180 HP engine, we can discount Permit types as only the RV10 is able to for fill this requirement and unless you build one yourself you are unlikely to find one on this side of the pond.
To keep the cost down it would be best to seek a common type such as a PA28, both the PA28-180 & 181 would fit the bill with four people they can lift enough fuel to take you half way down France from Oxford. Parts are cheap and supply is good, the aircraft are known by most maintenance company's so you should have few surprises. The older 180's are getting a bit long in the tooth but if well maintained this should not put you off.
The TB10 is another place to look, there are some good aircraft to be had and it will match the PA28 in terms of performance and cost.
I know that some on this forum will suggest some other aircraft, most would fit the bill but the issue of parts availability and cost will be a factor.
If you can find a hangar to keep it in the real star of this sector of the market is the Robin DR400 it will do all that the PA28 or TB10 will do but 10-15 kt faster and using about 30% less runway, the performance is so good that the 160 HP Robin will match the performance of the other 180 HP aircraft.
With two adults on board the DR400-180 (fitted with suplimental fuel tank) will fly Oxford to Bilbao non stop and land with two hours fuel in the tanks, the only snag is that when the supplemental tank is filled the C of G moves aft and effectively turns the aircraft into a two seater unless the rear passengers are very light.
I take it from the post that you made you need to have the four seats full, this means for all practical purposes you are unlikly to be able to go very far with any less that a 180 HP engine, we can discount Permit types as only the RV10 is able to for fill this requirement and unless you build one yourself you are unlikely to find one on this side of the pond.
To keep the cost down it would be best to seek a common type such as a PA28, both the PA28-180 & 181 would fit the bill with four people they can lift enough fuel to take you half way down France from Oxford. Parts are cheap and supply is good, the aircraft are known by most maintenance company's so you should have few surprises. The older 180's are getting a bit long in the tooth but if well maintained this should not put you off.
The TB10 is another place to look, there are some good aircraft to be had and it will match the PA28 in terms of performance and cost.
I know that some on this forum will suggest some other aircraft, most would fit the bill but the issue of parts availability and cost will be a factor.
If you can find a hangar to keep it in the real star of this sector of the market is the Robin DR400 it will do all that the PA28 or TB10 will do but 10-15 kt faster and using about 30% less runway, the performance is so good that the 160 HP Robin will match the performance of the other 180 HP aircraft.
With two adults on board the DR400-180 (fitted with suplimental fuel tank) will fly Oxford to Bilbao non stop and land with two hours fuel in the tanks, the only snag is that when the supplemental tank is filled the C of G moves aft and effectively turns the aircraft into a two seater unless the rear passengers are very light.
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I have thought about co ownership but really would like my own aircraft
My budget is around 13k not a lot I know
Say for instance I bought a pa 28 or similar what would the running costs be
Also if it needed work doing what am I permitted to do myself? I'm mechanically minded.
what is the difference between permit to fly and cessnas and the like
I won't be flying the airways as I don't have an instrument rating
Will be vfr
Unfortunataley I don't have access to a field, that would certainly save cash
The local playing fields are not going to be an option !
What if I asked a farmer if I could keep it in his field
Just racking my brains here
Really do love aviation and can't see myself financing a CPL so my own aircraft is my dream!
Thanks again everyone
My budget is around 13k not a lot I know
Say for instance I bought a pa 28 or similar what would the running costs be
Also if it needed work doing what am I permitted to do myself? I'm mechanically minded.
what is the difference between permit to fly and cessnas and the like
I won't be flying the airways as I don't have an instrument rating
Will be vfr
Unfortunataley I don't have access to a field, that would certainly save cash
The local playing fields are not going to be an option !
What if I asked a farmer if I could keep it in his field
Just racking my brains here
Really do love aviation and can't see myself financing a CPL so my own aircraft is my dream!
Thanks again everyone
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Crash one
I think your attitude to those who maintain C of A aircraft requires a little adjustment, it is not a case of simply throwing your cheque book after the aircraft and being ripped off as your post suggests.
The fact is that no one in the GA maintenance world is making much money (except the CAA) by the time the overheads are covered and the cost of having someone maintain your aircraft be it permit or C of A will be the same for the labour if you are getting a skilled service.
if you look at the typical GA maintenance hourly rate you will find that it is about 50% lower than a typical car main dealer.
I think that considering the overheads most GA maintenance shops offer good value for money, with the cost reflecting the overheads rather than the money that is going into the pockets of the maintenance company.
The fact is that no one in the GA maintenance world is making much money (except the CAA) by the time the overheads are covered and the cost of having someone maintain your aircraft be it permit or C of A will be the same for the labour if you are getting a skilled service.
if you look at the typical GA maintenance hourly rate you will find that it is about 50% lower than a typical car main dealer.
I think that considering the overheads most GA maintenance shops offer good value for money, with the cost reflecting the overheads rather than the money that is going into the pockets of the maintenance company.
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Any four seater you find at £13 k is going to be an unairworthy wreck that will have some sort of pond life living in it, my advice to you would be to find a long established and stable group of about five or six members and get a share in an aircraft.
With your budget you should be able to find a very clean PA28 or the like and with only five or six members of the group availability should be reasonable.
With your budget you should be able to find a very clean PA28 or the like and with only five or six members of the group availability should be reasonable.
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Get yourself a share and see how you get on with that first.
I had shares for about 10 years before buying my first aircraft, the main reason I bought my own was because I was looking for something unusual to fly / aerobat and there were no shares of that type around.
I now have both my own permit aircraft and a share in a CofA type (or whatever its called nowadays).
The permit aircraft is a high performance single seater for when I want to be a hooligan and the CofA is a grown up 4 seater for when I'd like to do some more relaxed flying without my knuckles being white....
The Permit aircraft I maintain myself and doesnt cost that much to run, £500 for insurance, £70 per month hangerage and about £500 for parts for servicing and the annual permit. Thats doing about 50hrs per year in it.
The CofA type would be a financial killer if I was to run it myself, hangerage is about £160 per month, insurance about £1500 and the last annual was about £4-5k, thats after we'd just spent £5k having a load of other work done.
If your thinking about something like a C172 / PA28 I'd go group all the way, I did 250hrs in my last group one and never had to dip my hand in my pocket other than the fixed and hourly costs.
Regards
UA
I had shares for about 10 years before buying my first aircraft, the main reason I bought my own was because I was looking for something unusual to fly / aerobat and there were no shares of that type around.
I now have both my own permit aircraft and a share in a CofA type (or whatever its called nowadays).
The permit aircraft is a high performance single seater for when I want to be a hooligan and the CofA is a grown up 4 seater for when I'd like to do some more relaxed flying without my knuckles being white....
The Permit aircraft I maintain myself and doesnt cost that much to run, £500 for insurance, £70 per month hangerage and about £500 for parts for servicing and the annual permit. Thats doing about 50hrs per year in it.
The CofA type would be a financial killer if I was to run it myself, hangerage is about £160 per month, insurance about £1500 and the last annual was about £4-5k, thats after we'd just spent £5k having a load of other work done.
If your thinking about something like a C172 / PA28 I'd go group all the way, I did 250hrs in my last group one and never had to dip my hand in my pocket other than the fixed and hourly costs.
Regards
UA
Last edited by Unusual Attitude; 29th Jun 2012 at 11:55.
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Get yourself a share and see how you get on with that first.
If you insist on buying a plane buy something popular, it pays off when it's time to sell.
Permit aircraft are significantly cheaper to run but you wont find many 4 seat ones. The main reason for this is that as A and C says that the costs of having all the relevant certificates to do maintenance on an EASA type is mad expensive, more so the parts which must come with a certificate that costs a bomb.
Ownership is always about 50% more expensive than you expect it to be and you'll use it probably 25% as much as you hope, so be prepared
.
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Hi A1.
If you own your own a/c the fixed costs can be horrific - Maintenance, Hangarage and Insurance are the biggies.
To give you a feel; on my CofA aircraft the insurance is c.£1.5K/yr. My hangarage is pretty reasonable but if you are at an established airfield it will be about £2-3K/yr. Outside parking will be cheaper but there is an impact on the airframe and on damp avionics. Maintenance can be a killer. I budget around £3-£4K/yr for maintenance but my last annual was £6K as the a/c needed some unplanned work
and this is for what I consider to be a pretty well kept aircraft. If you're looking to pay only £13K for an aircraft it's going to be old and tired and chances are you're going to be looking at some big bills down the road.
As a newbie to a/c ownership I would go with a group everytime. That way you can learn the ropes without too much outlay. With group ownership fixed costs are shared and usually take the form of a monthly charge.
OK, so you don't have the pleasure of knowing it's all yours but you can sleep at night knowing that most of the costs are already covered (if the group is well run) and you're only paying a fraction if something goes bang. Also most group aircraft are not used as much as you would think so availability is not usually a problem.
Rateone
If you own your own a/c the fixed costs can be horrific - Maintenance, Hangarage and Insurance are the biggies.
To give you a feel; on my CofA aircraft the insurance is c.£1.5K/yr. My hangarage is pretty reasonable but if you are at an established airfield it will be about £2-3K/yr. Outside parking will be cheaper but there is an impact on the airframe and on damp avionics. Maintenance can be a killer. I budget around £3-£4K/yr for maintenance but my last annual was £6K as the a/c needed some unplanned work
and this is for what I consider to be a pretty well kept aircraft. If you're looking to pay only £13K for an aircraft it's going to be old and tired and chances are you're going to be looking at some big bills down the road. As a newbie to a/c ownership I would go with a group everytime. That way you can learn the ropes without too much outlay. With group ownership fixed costs are shared and usually take the form of a monthly charge.
OK, so you don't have the pleasure of knowing it's all yours but you can sleep at night knowing that most of the costs are already covered (if the group is well run) and you're only paying a fraction if something goes bang. Also most group aircraft are not used as much as you would think so availability is not usually a problem.
Rateone
Last edited by rateone; 29th Jun 2012 at 11:25. Reason: typos
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Thanks for your replys everyone all advice taken on board either group shares or permit seems to be more practical in my situation I dont get to fly as often as I would like and I guess having a C of A aircraft sitting at an airfield is going to cost money.
The hourly slots I'm booking are great but id like to go further out perhaps the south coast somewhere
But thanks again all it's certainly an insight and very tempting to see aircraft advertised in pilot magazine for like 12k ! Must stop looking now !
The hourly slots I'm booking are great but id like to go further out perhaps the south coast somewhere
But thanks again all it's certainly an insight and very tempting to see aircraft advertised in pilot magazine for like 12k ! Must stop looking now !
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If you can find one get a share in a four seat Jodel, you will get much better performance and lifting power at less cost than a Piper or Cessna. Something like this:- Jodel 1050 3rd share for sale
Last edited by foxmoth; 29th Jun 2012 at 13:30.
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Hi Aerofoil1,
Been there, done it. I can't disagree with any of the posts here but they are being very kind.
£13000 is not a lot for a four seater but not impossible. There are people out there desparate to move on aircraft so there are bargains to be had.
Running costs are another thing altogether. An EASA/CofA or whatever you would probably need to get four seats will cost £5000 a year maintenence in a lucky year. That's what it cost our group this year for a five year old aircraft. Imagine what it costs for a 30 year old one. Plus insurance plus parking plus CAA fees.
10 years ago I owned a 25 year old Archer. I loved it. I had no parking charges but it cost me £10000 per year not including fuel or engine fund.
You also said day VFR only. It's amazing how quickly you may grow out of that point of view.
I am now a member of a group with a modern aircraft. It's like having your own at a fraction of the price (and worry). Availability has never been a problem and the tasks are shared.
Now for the arithmetic £6000 maint + £2000 ins + £1500 parking + fuel for 30hrs @ 8gph = £2300 total £11800 = £393 per hour for an old aeroplane!
Alternative is leave the family at home.
D.O.
Been there, done it. I can't disagree with any of the posts here but they are being very kind.
£13000 is not a lot for a four seater but not impossible. There are people out there desparate to move on aircraft so there are bargains to be had.
Running costs are another thing altogether. An EASA/CofA or whatever you would probably need to get four seats will cost £5000 a year maintenence in a lucky year. That's what it cost our group this year for a five year old aircraft. Imagine what it costs for a 30 year old one. Plus insurance plus parking plus CAA fees.
10 years ago I owned a 25 year old Archer. I loved it. I had no parking charges but it cost me £10000 per year not including fuel or engine fund.
You also said day VFR only. It's amazing how quickly you may grow out of that point of view.
I am now a member of a group with a modern aircraft. It's like having your own at a fraction of the price (and worry). Availability has never been a problem and the tasks are shared.
Now for the arithmetic £6000 maint + £2000 ins + £1500 parking + fuel for 30hrs @ 8gph = £2300 total £11800 = £393 per hour for an old aeroplane!
Alternative is leave the family at home.
D.O.
Last edited by dont overfil; 29th Jun 2012 at 13:17.
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Don't overfill
I see your point of view! It looks very expensive
I'm sure a 2 seater would be ok I'm definatelly looking into a permit to fly plane maybe one with fold up wings so I can tow it back to a garage !
I see your point of view! It looks very expensive
I'm sure a 2 seater would be ok I'm definatelly looking into a permit to fly plane maybe one with fold up wings so I can tow it back to a garage !
For £13,000 you are definitely limited to something like a Jodel or Condor. If you want fold up wings you might consider a Kitfox or Avid which are also much cheaper to run.
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Aerofoil1,
Remind yourself that with similarities to a car, boat or house, when you buy a plane, you're buying into something large/complex/expensive enough, that it requires operational support from others, and they are entitled to be fairly paid for their time too. That means cost.
Airplanes, depending upon the nature of their authority to fly, bring along with them a "system" within which they operate. This system is intended to assure that they are safe to fly. It includes many of the aforementioned costs. Most everyone seems to assert that they expect the aircraft that they fly to be at least safe. Most pilots do not have the skill or capability to assure this on their own, and so have to pay for this to be done for them.
Though I very much encourage flying and owning, you gotta keep it within what you can afford, or it gets miserable for everyone. I have owned my C 150 for 25 years now. Yes, a "spam can" by newer spam shell standards, but it's a very nice one, and I don't even think about the operating costs. Other aircraft I fly would bankrupt me if I had to pay the expenses - I know my limits...
Yes, co ownership, or perhaps go back to your hour at a time aircraft rental organisation, and offer a hansome daily minimum, to take the plane for the day. Money talks, if they think that the aircraft might sit for part of that day anyway.
Welcome to the prospect of ownership, but 13,000 pounds is not realistic for sole ownership of an airworthy aircraft in the long run, unless you can mitigate all of the other associated costs.
Remind yourself that with similarities to a car, boat or house, when you buy a plane, you're buying into something large/complex/expensive enough, that it requires operational support from others, and they are entitled to be fairly paid for their time too. That means cost.
Airplanes, depending upon the nature of their authority to fly, bring along with them a "system" within which they operate. This system is intended to assure that they are safe to fly. It includes many of the aforementioned costs. Most everyone seems to assert that they expect the aircraft that they fly to be at least safe. Most pilots do not have the skill or capability to assure this on their own, and so have to pay for this to be done for them.
Though I very much encourage flying and owning, you gotta keep it within what you can afford, or it gets miserable for everyone. I have owned my C 150 for 25 years now. Yes, a "spam can" by newer spam shell standards, but it's a very nice one, and I don't even think about the operating costs. Other aircraft I fly would bankrupt me if I had to pay the expenses - I know my limits...
Yes, co ownership, or perhaps go back to your hour at a time aircraft rental organisation, and offer a hansome daily minimum, to take the plane for the day. Money talks, if they think that the aircraft might sit for part of that day anyway.
Welcome to the prospect of ownership, but 13,000 pounds is not realistic for sole ownership of an airworthy aircraft in the long run, unless you can mitigate all of the other associated costs.