Do you listen to ATC if they tell you the weather ahead is bad?

[soaringhigh650]

I was always under the impression you could file a flight plan while airborne, are you saying (genuine question by the way) that you can't do it once you are in CAS?

Obviously you put your own safety first. If your VFR clearance puts you below minimum safe altitude and you have no choice to get out you're going to have to declare an emergency and keep flying at or above that altitude.

Don't go scud running into the ground. Pilots have been killed this way before.

The earlier you make known you can no longer maintain VFR the better.

[peterh337]

This touches onto another topic, which is that much (most?) of the VFR pilot community doesn't do MSA planning.

Presumably they think that nobody will fly into a hill when VFR.

But quite a lot of people do - including ones who apparently never entered IMC.

If one planned every route as an IFR flight (from the POV of MSA and navigation) then an inadvertent entry into IMC is a lot less hazardous, so long as some instrument flight capability exists.

[dont overfil]

Quote. I was always under the impression you could file a flight plan while airborne, are you saying (genuine question by the way) that you can't do it once you are in CAS? Quote

Every time you get a clearance to enter class D airspace you are filing a flight plan. It's a verbal one.

If you mean file an airborne flightplan to enter the airways system it is technically possible if you can find a facility which can do it for you in a timely manner. It is much easier in the USA.

D.O.

[thing]

The earlier you make known you can no longer maintain VFR the better.

I did....there was no danger at any time by the way, it wasn't an 'Oooh you should have turned back' situation in the slightest, it was a great flying day. I was just caught in an odd situation technically so to speak. No doubt somebody will be along to say I should have flown back (through the scud again) to my home airfield, landed, filed IFR and set back off again, or some other bananas idea.

which is that much (most?) of the VFR pilot community doesn't do MSA planning.

Got to disagree with that Peter, I always have the MSA even if it's just a local jaunt in gin clear weather. Being as our flight planner throws it up automatically anyway you would have to try hard not to have the MSA.

[peterh337]

If you mean file an airborne flightplan to enter the airways system it is technically possible if you can find a facility which can do it for you in a timely manner. It is much easier in the USA.

Not so much "airways" as "Class A", and I have found it virtually impossible to get a popup IFR clearance into Class A in the UK. Last time I tried (a few years ago) I was actively frustrated by Manchester Control who made it impossible, by asking me where I wanted to join CAS, and when I gave them the name of an intersection, they said at my level that was below CAS, and when I said I would enter CAS by climbing, they didn't want to know and transferred me to London Info. There was no intersection (that I could dig out with the tools I had to hand) which was on a CAS boundary at my then level.

[bookworm]

I was always under the impression you could file a flight plan while airborne, are you saying (genuine question by the way) that you can't do it once you are in CAS?

No, I'm not saying that. I am saying that if you accept a VFR clearance in controlled airspace, you should maintain VMC until and unless you are given an IFR clearance. If you cannot remain in VMC, you shouldn't be accepting the VFR clearance. The controller can't see the flight conditions at the altitude you're at, but you can. Conditions may deteriorate, and you may need to negotiate an alternative plan with ATC. But the controller has the right to expect you to do that in a more timely fashion than "IMC this instant" as you "pop into some scud"! From what you say, it wasn't a major issue in this case, but it could have been more serious if the controller was unable to offer you an IFR clearance at the time and you also needed to separate from other traffic.

[thing]

Conditions may deteriorate, and you may need to negotiate an alternative plan with ATC. But the controller has the right to expect you to do that in a more timely fashion than "IMC this instant" as you "pop into some scud"

Well if there hadn't been an a/c to report crossing then she wouldn't have asked me to look for it and I wouldn't have had to tell her I was IMC. So it was the other guys fault.

Your last post actually cleared up the VFR/IFR situation in CAS quite nicely whether intentional or not so thanks for that. It does seem off though that IMCR pilots should be asking this sort of stuff, and it's not like I was told and have forgotten, I genuinely never covered this sort of thing.

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by thing

It does seem off though that IMCR pilots should be asking this sort of stuff, and it's not like I was told and have forgotten, I genuinely never covered this sort of thing.

Might not want to mention that, someone might conclude the IMCr a.k.a. IR(R) has an inadequate level of theory/operational practice training to allow mixing in with CAT

[maxred]

This I think is what the OP intended from his post, in that this particular incident, travelling from Northumberland to Perth, adequate warning would appear to have been given that between his current position, and destination, it was NOT VFR. i.e. he could not complete the flight VFR. As I posted earlier he then had a decision to make. FBWs point, if I read it correctly, is that something else had to happen, determined by the pilot, and not ATC. What is your alternate??? Do not have one. Are you IFR capable (aeroplane and licence.currency skills??). No.This pilot ploughed on, the point that FBW was commenting on. Should he have, or should he have turned back???? It was not FBW that could make the decsiion for him, he had to do that by himself, and it would appear that things got difficult, it was then handled very well by all concerned. However, it could easily have ended in disaster. FBW would have had a different OP, telling us that he did tell and warn him, but that the advice was not heeded.
Comment and discuss

[riverrock83]

Originally Posted by 'India-Mike

Yep, excellent job well done Clydeport.

You mention 'no compass, no gyro'. My first experience of 'no compass, no gyro' was during my course to remove the no-applied instrument restriction from my FI privileges. Didn't see it on my IMC course or my IR. But a marvellous thing to be on the receiving end of. Do ATCOs get exposure to it in training?

During my PPL training, in the Instrument appreciation section, my instructor got me to do a no compass, no gyro SRA under foggles. ATC were happy to oblige (although they had been asked before we left the ground). Hard work! Not sure I'd be comfortable doing it outside of an emergency.

Perhaps all non-instrument rated pilots should be made familiar (even if not totally proficient) with the procedure so they know the procedure exists and it doesn't scare them if they ever need it in real life? Then perhaps ClydePort's excellent services might not be needed next time. I'm surprised IM that you didn't come across it in IMC or IR training - but then I'm still pre-PPL.

My understanding is that no compass / no gyro (and by that people mean no DI - the artificial horizon is irrelevant to this discussion so ignore a previous person's inverted comment) is easier for controllers because they tell you to turn left / right instead of calculating a heading to follow (which needs wind corrected, etc - so in reality is a delta on the previous heading). However - I'm not a controller...

It might be that my instructor got me to do the SRA because of the lack of nav aids in my cockpit - so if completely lost, I'm more likely to need to ask for navigational assistance from FBW or his radar operator friends than others. At least until I get my PPL and start carrying a GPS - but thats for another thread.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Back to opener:
Apologies if it seems but a quibble of words, and yet:
What ATC tell me to do is a direct order - they are controllers, after all, with authority.
Unless I missed something, o/p operates an information service, offering information but no control. Which means to me that, formally, if they inform me of T/Cu or a troop of octopuses in my flightpath or Miss Piggy, it is for me to assess that information and make my own decision.
The sheer fact that they take the effort to inform me would indicate things are rather serious, so the information might weigh in heavy in my decision. Beginner that I am, and having learned here how generous the service can be, I might be tempted to respond "Scottish info, you can see my flight plan, what do you suggest? Oscar Oscar &c" which I think wouldn't be much use on my usual Brussels information. Still, responsability remains mine, I could not expect more than a suggestion.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

This touches onto another topic, which is that much (most?) of the VFR pilot community doesn't do MSA planning.

Even before I had the IMCr I always had the MSA written down for each leg. Maybe I didn't always stick to it, when showing passengers something on the ground, but I always knew what it was.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Having lived, and learned to fly, in absolutely flat country, I had never even thought of MSA planning. My first southbound flight was rather a surprise - how come the ground is so close while I am still at 2000 AMSL?

The term MSA was never mentioned in all of my - exhaustive - training, though the concept came not unexpected, of course.

[Rod1]

GtE

There are three common versions of the MCR01. The ULC will land in 150m, the other two would need 350 / 450m. A 1/3 chance that he could have landed in a 200m field. This was not me, but if I got caught out by weather 90% chance I would declare an urgency, climb into cloud and worry about the paperwork on the ground. I fly a very well equipped MCR01 and practice under a hood on a regular basis just to cover this eventuality. I would however have run away quick given the information on the weather posted above!

Rod1

[Jan Olieslagers]

There is still no legal obligation to follow the instructions/clearance of a controller in class G (outside an ATZ)

How can there be a controller in non-controlled airspace?
Will I ever understand you, islanders?
Or is "controller" short for "radio operator" ? If so, it is one of the most confusing I came across!

[thing]

Will I ever understand you, islanders?

I was born and bred here and I don't understand us. I think you have to remember that where there is a regulation free zone then regulations have to be invented to fill it up. Britain abhors a regulation vacuum, there's work for many otherwise unemployable people in regulation. This country was built on it. We are closely related to our Teutonic cousins after all, our head of state is German.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Controller is basically short for radio operator.

Highly skilled radio operator, passing information and maintaining detailed situational awareness. But radio operator.

Pilots control aeroplanes, albeit often on the detailed advice and sometimes instructions from people called "controllers"

G

[mary meagher]

Funny thing, for such a small island with so much traffic, in the UK I always found it far less hassle to beetle around in the FIR, either in the Supercub or a glider, without talking to anybody at all on the radio; VFR to be sure, and keeping that very good lookout, clear of cloud, etc etc etc.

In the USA, flying power, would use the superb enroute assistance and file IFR every time. They make it so easy. (yes, I did have the IR) And more than once took the advice of the enroute controller regarding unpleasant conditions best avoided.

Gliders use to have - perhaps still do - the dispensation to fly into cloud first calling out on a particular glider frequency to notify other gliders of your location and height. I only tried that once, in a lovely big cu-nimb that had superb lift but no sign of sinister flashing or banging. Called out my height, so did another glider pilot, our separation in that cloud was 500 feet. Why we didn't hit each other I'll never know, because I was giving my height in QFE, and the other guy in QNH, as was correct..... so gave up cloud flying, realising my limitations.

[DLT1939]

A US perspective:

Ask_ATC_Storm_Week — AOPA Live

[Maoraigh1]

This touches onto another topic, which is that much (most?) of the VFR pilot community doesn't do MSA planning.

Presumably they think that nobody will fly into a hill when VFR.

But quite a lot of people do - including ones who apparently never entered IMC.

I fly VFR, with no DG or AH, almost always below MSA. I doubt if there is one daytime CFIT where a light aircraft flew into a hill, without first entering cloud.. I've been looking at the last 25 years AAIB reports, and hope to write something by the end of July. There have been several accidents where the aircraft was above MSA, but was unable to stay there.