Do you listen to ATC if they tell you the weather ahead is bad?
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are more than a few bits your going to struggle from a 1000ft never mind 50ft.
And its a pretty daft rule anyway because post event your either alive and thus proved you did have sufficent height or your dead and proved that you didn't.
Its all going to change anyway.
And its a pretty daft rule anyway because post event your either alive and thus proved you did have sufficent height or your dead and proved that you didn't.
Its all going to change anyway.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Up North
Age: 57
Posts: 557
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MJ,
I wasn't opining whether it was a good, bad, or indifferent piece of legislation, merely that it exists. I agree, there are areas of the UK where perhaps even 1000' AGL may not be safe, or legal, in the context of that part of rule 5, particularly the more pointy bits. Equally, 50' over some beach, with the tide out, at 4AM next week, might be?
Sevenstrokeroll, you're welcome.
I wasn't opining whether it was a good, bad, or indifferent piece of legislation, merely that it exists. I agree, there are areas of the UK where perhaps even 1000' AGL may not be safe, or legal, in the context of that part of rule 5, particularly the more pointy bits. Equally, 50' over some beach, with the tide out, at 4AM next week, might be?
Sevenstrokeroll, you're welcome.
Last edited by mrmum; 13th Jun 2012 at 21:25. Reason: spelling
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Up North
Age: 57
Posts: 557
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think I read that if we get a blanket 500' minimum, then as well as all the current exemptions, there will be a further one for instructors carrying-out PFL's. You would have to have that, it's pointless going around at 500' AGL every time. The lower the you allow the student to go, the better and the more realistic it is, in my opinion. You could do some at an airfield or strip I suppose and utilise the current exemptions, or just make sure you touch the wheels in a field every time.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No Mad Jock is quite correct!!
Ornagraphic fog is a type of fog unique to Scotland and is created near Malt whiskey distilleries.
The fumes blend with normal fog creating unique shapes hence Orna as in ornament and Graphic.
It is usually only seen by people who have consumed vast quantities of Malt Whiskey hence the term my brain is all of a fog!!!
If you do the Met exams for the ATP the question on Ornagraphic fog is a trick question as they may ask how do you spell IT!!!
Pace
Ornagraphic fog is a type of fog unique to Scotland and is created near Malt whiskey distilleries.
The fumes blend with normal fog creating unique shapes hence Orna as in ornament and Graphic.
It is usually only seen by people who have consumed vast quantities of Malt Whiskey hence the term my brain is all of a fog!!!
If you do the Met exams for the ATP the question on Ornagraphic fog is a trick question as they may ask how do you spell IT!!!
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 14th Jun 2012 at 00:51.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You mean you also don't have Cumulus Grantitus in the FAA ATP's?
There you go again
Scottish Lady in the highlands of advancing years well known with the giant boobies. Nothing to do with met.Now Cumulus Granitus? not very good for flying IMC through! Gets a bit HARD keeping things together with the aircraft (and the false teeth) in those big Mammas
Inadvertent entry? Maintain straight and level airspeed will drop to zero very fast and expect high G.Pace
Last edited by Pace; 14th Jun 2012 at 08:45.
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 2,460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If she was of advancing years, wouldn't the effect be called Cumulus Gravitus?
Anyway, false teeth are supposed to be an advantage (if they can be removed as a complete assembly)
(getting out of here quick, got to go to work)
Anyway, false teeth are supposed to be an advantage
(if they can be removed as a complete assembly)(getting out of here quick, got to go to work)
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: The frozen north....
Age: 49
Posts: 547
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I'll hold my hand up and admit I've done the scud running bit up the coast in the past but only in a very considered manner. I've lost track of how many times I've been coming north to be greeted by that layer of clag that often sits just south of Edinburgh and most of the time its not been an issue getting over or under it perfectly safely.
Its easy enough to ask for weather for Leuchars, Dundee and Aberdeen so you've a good idea of what’s up ahead... 9 times out of 10 once your past EDI / Leuchars the cloud base has lifted to allow you to continue VFR without issue and once your at Montrose basin its nice and flat all the way to Perth.
In something docile like a Cessna pootling along 1/2 mile offshore at 300' at 90kts or even a bit slower with 1st stage of flap to improve the view doesn’t take a great deal of skill and if you know its only for 10miles or so its no biggie. Very different prospect doing it in something fast, twitchy and unstable for a long period however and I'd not be giving that a go.
There is of course the question of what happens if the donkey quits whilst low over water but in some places such as Aberdeen your forced 1nm offshore VFR below 1000' for several miles to deconflict with the ILS traffic so its no worse than that!
I've met the chap who was involved in this incident and exchanged hangar chat with him many times, I've always considered him to be cautious and very sensible about his approach to flying and he takes very good care of his machine. I'm told he's also very experienced and has flown all over the world but we are all susceptible to a bit of 'push-on-itis' from time to time whether we are willing to admit it or not, especially in Scotland where the weather can be very different to the forecast.
Saying that, if I'd been looking for a way up the coast and told well in advance that Leuchars and Dundee were 300' I'd be looking for somewhere to land.....
Its easy enough to ask for weather for Leuchars, Dundee and Aberdeen so you've a good idea of what’s up ahead... 9 times out of 10 once your past EDI / Leuchars the cloud base has lifted to allow you to continue VFR without issue and once your at Montrose basin its nice and flat all the way to Perth.
In something docile like a Cessna pootling along 1/2 mile offshore at 300' at 90kts or even a bit slower with 1st stage of flap to improve the view doesn’t take a great deal of skill and if you know its only for 10miles or so its no biggie. Very different prospect doing it in something fast, twitchy and unstable for a long period however and I'd not be giving that a go.
There is of course the question of what happens if the donkey quits whilst low over water but in some places such as Aberdeen your forced 1nm offshore VFR below 1000' for several miles to deconflict with the ILS traffic so its no worse than that!
I've met the chap who was involved in this incident and exchanged hangar chat with him many times, I've always considered him to be cautious and very sensible about his approach to flying and he takes very good care of his machine. I'm told he's also very experienced and has flown all over the world but we are all susceptible to a bit of 'push-on-itis' from time to time whether we are willing to admit it or not, especially in Scotland where the weather can be very different to the forecast.
Saying that, if I'd been looking for a way up the coast and told well in advance that Leuchars and Dundee were 300' I'd be looking for somewhere to land.....
Last edited by Unusual Attitude; 14th Jun 2012 at 10:18.
I think I read that if we get a blanket 500' minimum, then as well as all the current exemptions, there will be a further one for instructors carrying-out PFL's.
4.6 Except when necessary for take-off or landing, or except by permission from the competent authority, a VFR flight shall not be flown:
a) over the congested areas of cities, towns or settlements or over an open-air assembly of persons at a height less than 300 m (1 000 ft) above the highest obstacle within a radius of 600 m from the aircraft;
b) elsewhere than as specified in 4.6 a), at a height less than 150 m (500 ft) above the ground or water, or 150 m (500 ft) above the highest obstacle within a radius of 150 m (500 ft) from the aircraft.
a) over the congested areas of cities, towns or settlements or over an open-air assembly of persons at a height less than 300 m (1 000 ft) above the highest obstacle within a radius of 600 m from the aircraft;
b) elsewhere than as specified in 4.6 a), at a height less than 150 m (500 ft) above the ground or water, or 150 m (500 ft) above the highest obstacle within a radius of 150 m (500 ft) from the aircraft.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BillieBob
All well and good but remember with all these regulations the Commander of the aircraft can over ride the regulations if he feels the aircraft and its occupants are at risk.
So the VFR pilot flying VMC up the coast who is forced below 500 feet to remain VMC is quite within his legal rights regardless of the regs.
He will have to explain himself had he been recorded or admitted to doing so but he could not be found guilty if there was a genuine reason for doing so!
Small point but we live in the real world not the pen pushers office.
Pace
All well and good but remember with all these regulations the Commander of the aircraft can over ride the regulations if he feels the aircraft and its occupants are at risk.
So the VFR pilot flying VMC up the coast who is forced below 500 feet to remain VMC is quite within his legal rights regardless of the regs.
He will have to explain himself had he been recorded or admitted to doing so but he could not be found guilty if there was a genuine reason for doing so!
Small point but we live in the real world not the pen pushers office.
Pace
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: The frozen north....
Age: 49
Posts: 547
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
He will have to explain himself had he been recorded or admitted to doing so but he could not be found guilty if there was a genuine reason for doing so!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: An ATC centre this side of the moon.
Posts: 1,160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Soaring......it was not me, I only tried my best to stop him getting into the situation that he got himself into!......it was the guys at Glasgow ATC and the pilot of helimed 51 that did a great job.........I have enjoyed reading all the posts and if nothing else seems to have kicked off a discussion regarding how far you can push yourself and still comply with the VFR rules 