Do you listen to ATC if they tell you the weather ahead is bad?
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Originally Posted by Genghis the Engineer
I've also often flown VFR in IMC;
Last edited by Talkdownman; 11th Jun 2012 at 16:27.
Genghis,
See the photo in the following link for an idea of the type. Try to ignore the comments of the witnesses!
Lost Pilot - Scottish Sun
See the photo in the following link for an idea of the type. Try to ignore the comments of the witnesses!
Lost Pilot - Scottish Sun
Genghis,
See the photo in the following link for an idea of the type. Try to ignore the comments of the witnesses!
Lost Pilot - Scottish Sun
See the photo in the following link for an idea of the type. Try to ignore the comments of the witnesses!
Lost Pilot - Scottish Sun
High performance, but certainly on a PtF or French equivalent. Not permitted to fly in IMC; possibly the pilot *may* have had an IMC or IR permitting flight down to 1500m visibility, which would be fine in that aeroplane IF suitably equipped, particularly with an AI which isn't mandatory but is likely to be fitted.
I've a vague feeling I may be wrong, but again I think that an IMC holder can fly out of sight of surface in such an aeroplane - legally anyhow!
This does all sound like a bit of a misadventure doesn't it.
G
fisbangwollop:
In my humble opinion (which goes back to going solo at Edzell in 1957) you did exactly the right thing and I would have been very grateful to have received such advice (or should that be "notification").
Not many people in this country realise that ATC are virtually powerless to stop VFR pilots from killing themselves.
Between DC-10 contracts, I found myself flying a Dornier 228 for the Scottish Fisheries Department. We were cleared by the CAA down to 60 feet in order to get good photographs of the great unclean.
Therefore, there were some days when I would be airborne for 5 hours and never get above 500 feet. However, I had a "proper" Kipper Fleet navigator with a 300 mile colour Bendix radar.
So, for example, I went off one day from Kirkwall to go out to Rockall. The visibility was good but the cloudbase was low.
Five hours later, Andrew took us round the top of Lewis and I called right base for 27 at Stornoway. A BA 748 was just going around from his second VOR approach (MDA 700 feet) and asked me what the cloud base was? I had no difficulty in telling him that I hadn't been that high for over 5 hours.
We knew what we were doing but how do you expect ATC to know what your capabilities are?
If they are in any doubt then I would be very happy for them to ask if we really know what we are doing but that is not their job.
fisbangwollop: If I am ever on the other end of your frequency then I will always be happy to hear your advice.
(Born in Monkton with 17,000 hours and still alive).
In my humble opinion (which goes back to going solo at Edzell in 1957) you did exactly the right thing and I would have been very grateful to have received such advice (or should that be "notification").
Not many people in this country realise that ATC are virtually powerless to stop VFR pilots from killing themselves.
Between DC-10 contracts, I found myself flying a Dornier 228 for the Scottish Fisheries Department. We were cleared by the CAA down to 60 feet in order to get good photographs of the great unclean.
Therefore, there were some days when I would be airborne for 5 hours and never get above 500 feet. However, I had a "proper" Kipper Fleet navigator with a 300 mile colour Bendix radar.
So, for example, I went off one day from Kirkwall to go out to Rockall. The visibility was good but the cloudbase was low.
Five hours later, Andrew took us round the top of Lewis and I called right base for 27 at Stornoway. A BA 748 was just going around from his second VOR approach (MDA 700 feet) and asked me what the cloud base was? I had no difficulty in telling him that I hadn't been that high for over 5 hours.
We knew what we were doing but how do you expect ATC to know what your capabilities are?
If they are in any doubt then I would be very happy for them to ask if we really know what we are doing but that is not their job.
fisbangwollop: If I am ever on the other end of your frequency then I will always be happy to hear your advice.
(Born in Monkton with 17,000 hours and still alive).
Okay, poor phrasing on my part, and possibly digging a hole for myself without good reason. Perhaps I might stop now.
When entering cloud, I go IMC, and thus IFR, even if following my own navigation. Ignore all after "good morning".
G
When entering cloud, I go IMC, and thus IFR, even if following my own navigation. Ignore all after "good morning".
G
PtF;
Do you mean an LAA aircraft?
I had it in my mind that LAA aircraft were VFR only?
I was once interested in buying an RV-10 until I discovered that I couldn't go anywhere with it unless the weather was suitable for VFR.
(My current aircraft was fully-IFR with a Garmin 430, Mode S, ADF, DME and, most importantly for IFR flight, a second altimeter).
Do you mean an LAA aircraft?
I had it in my mind that LAA aircraft were VFR only?
I was once interested in buying an RV-10 until I discovered that I couldn't go anywhere with it unless the weather was suitable for VFR.
(My current aircraft was fully-IFR with a Garmin 430, Mode S, ADF, DME and, most importantly for IFR flight, a second altimeter).
All LAA aircraft have historically been PtF (Permit to Fly), but that may not be the case in the future if they take on things like CofA Chipmunks.
Not all PtF aircraft are handled by the LAA (microlights and Spitfires for example).
With a few special exceptions, all PtF aeroplanes are limited to day-VFR; but whilst day is unambiguous, VFR minima can depend upon licence, speed, and altitude.
Plus all PtF aircraft have the potential for specific limits to be listed on the permit, and there are multiple flavours of Permit, e.g. Type-Approved, Type-Accepted, Amateur-Built...
I've not seen the document, but I know that the Vulcan flies on a PtF, and I think we can all safely assume that the conditions on that permit are not identical to those on permit for the the flexwing microlight I was flying yesterday morning. The odds are that the wording on the permit for the MCR01 we're talking about are different again.
G
Not all PtF aircraft are handled by the LAA (microlights and Spitfires for example).
With a few special exceptions, all PtF aeroplanes are limited to day-VFR; but whilst day is unambiguous, VFR minima can depend upon licence, speed, and altitude.
Plus all PtF aircraft have the potential for specific limits to be listed on the permit, and there are multiple flavours of Permit, e.g. Type-Approved, Type-Accepted, Amateur-Built...
I've not seen the document, but I know that the Vulcan flies on a PtF, and I think we can all safely assume that the conditions on that permit are not identical to those on permit for the the flexwing microlight I was flying yesterday morning. The odds are that the wording on the permit for the MCR01 we're talking about are different again.
G
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I could have sworn I'd replied to this once already, but it vanished.
Ooops - sorry about that. Perils of being a mod and having the "edit" and "reply" buttons next to each other. I usually notice in time when I've accidentally done that.
G
G
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I was going to fly yesterday. In my neck of the woods there was a solid ceiling - but a good 1800 foot if not more.
To keep the peace, we drove over Glenshee and down into Angus. What was very apparent was the ceiling varied by around 1000ft within 15 miles. Not unusual in this neck of the woods and really no surprise given the effects of the high ground.
I suspect I know the pilot but I'm not sure - either way with any level of expereince in this area it would not surprise me that there would be a way to get to Perth VFR (legally!)
We dropped in at Perth on the way home and whilst we were there the ceiling was 1300 to 1500ft - but it had been down to 500 ft. So a pretty marginal day and one where staying VFR would be a real challenge.
Fishbangs weather would have perhaps helped in finding a way through - but the locations are a very long way apart and so less use than they might appear. Either way a handover to a radar unit must make sense.
The reporting from the Sun is not even worth the electrons used to transmit it - so valueless. Either way it would appear that the aircraft in question flew into Glasgow - although he had been intending to transit Edinburgh. So obviously he could still see out of the window and keep the shiny side up. Whether he should have been that brave/foolish is perhaps the crux of the issue.
Eeither way if fishbang tells me the weather at x and y is bad - that helps - but it will not make me carry out an immediate u-turn. There is usually a gap - how big and for how long is the question you have to pose yourself and whether it is simply better to be on the grouond looking up etc...
Generally it is. But with poor weather at Glasgow and Edinburgh it is usually still possible to fly north . Yesterday at Perth the ambient and dewpoint were about 1.8 degrees apart when I looked - so a day when all sorts of things are likely to happen!
To keep the peace, we drove over Glenshee and down into Angus. What was very apparent was the ceiling varied by around 1000ft within 15 miles. Not unusual in this neck of the woods and really no surprise given the effects of the high ground.
I suspect I know the pilot but I'm not sure - either way with any level of expereince in this area it would not surprise me that there would be a way to get to Perth VFR (legally!)
We dropped in at Perth on the way home and whilst we were there the ceiling was 1300 to 1500ft - but it had been down to 500 ft. So a pretty marginal day and one where staying VFR would be a real challenge.
Fishbangs weather would have perhaps helped in finding a way through - but the locations are a very long way apart and so less use than they might appear. Either way a handover to a radar unit must make sense.
The reporting from the Sun is not even worth the electrons used to transmit it - so valueless. Either way it would appear that the aircraft in question flew into Glasgow - although he had been intending to transit Edinburgh. So obviously he could still see out of the window and keep the shiny side up. Whether he should have been that brave/foolish is perhaps the crux of the issue.
Eeither way if fishbang tells me the weather at x and y is bad - that helps - but it will not make me carry out an immediate u-turn. There is usually a gap - how big and for how long is the question you have to pose yourself and whether it is simply better to be on the grouond looking up etc...
Generally it is. But with poor weather at Glasgow and Edinburgh it is usually still possible to fly north . Yesterday at Perth the ambient and dewpoint were about 1.8 degrees apart when I looked - so a day when all sorts of things are likely to happen!
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GASAX..
Maybe so but when your following the M74 both the Cumbernauld and Edinburgh weather were the ones I thought may be useful to him as they would be the barrier to cross on his way north to Perth!!
Fishbangs weather would have perhaps helped in finding a way through - but the locations are a very long way apart and so less use than they might appear. Either way a handover to a radar unit must make sense.
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I'd like a penny for every time I have passed traffic information to 'VFR' and 'SVFR' flights (yes...SVFR too...) only to be told 'Roger, I'm IMC at the moment...' 
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Cumbernauld would have been on a direct-ish track for him in that case. But again overhead the airfield they are affected by the high ground directly to the south, whereas a couple of miles north it is often reasonable.
Edinburgh - well 30 odd miles and a lot of terrain away - so useful to know but.
In short a pilot has to decide what the view out of the windscreen is and whether it is sensible to continue. The one thing I would never do is turnaround because somewhere up ahead the weatherat an airport is poor. Particularly in Scotland, being a couple of miles one way or the other can make a huge difference to conditions - one glen will be solid, the next clear, the windward slope solid, the lee side entirely clear, over the water clear, on the shore solid (and vice versa)
Obviously you had some insight to what could happen and it looks like going to Glasgow was probably the only possible/sensible option. In theory the pilot should have known better in that he was actually there. In this case it would appear he did not.
But my point would be this is not East Anglia where the weather tends to be 'the weather' and because of that the weather information is useful but not a 'go, no go'. So my answer to the query is yes I listen and if the conditions get nasty I'll turn around, divert, whatever, but I'll make that decision on the basis of what is there - not observations at discrete widely spaced points.
Edinburgh - well 30 odd miles and a lot of terrain away - so useful to know but.
In short a pilot has to decide what the view out of the windscreen is and whether it is sensible to continue. The one thing I would never do is turnaround because somewhere up ahead the weatherat an airport is poor. Particularly in Scotland, being a couple of miles one way or the other can make a huge difference to conditions - one glen will be solid, the next clear, the windward slope solid, the lee side entirely clear, over the water clear, on the shore solid (and vice versa)
Obviously you had some insight to what could happen and it looks like going to Glasgow was probably the only possible/sensible option. In theory the pilot should have known better in that he was actually there. In this case it would appear he did not.
But my point would be this is not East Anglia where the weather tends to be 'the weather' and because of that the weather information is useful but not a 'go, no go'. So my answer to the query is yes I listen and if the conditions get nasty I'll turn around, divert, whatever, but I'll make that decision on the basis of what is there - not observations at discrete widely spaced points.
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gasax, seems to me you may be in danger of defending what with hindsight is the indefensible, for reasons known only to yourself?
FBW, please continue to act as you did yesterday, I am sure I am not the only one that would not have dismissed your information.
BB
FBW, please continue to act as you did yesterday, I am sure I am not the only one that would not have dismissed your information.
BB
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This link is a woeful story of a good friend and colleague who ignored 4 briefer/ATC warnings about weather with tragic results, I flew with him once about a month before the accident and said to myself "never again"
LAX03FA182
LAX03FA182