Do you listen to ATC if they tell you the weather ahead is bad?

[GeeWhizz]

So, controllers - I'm on a long leg, I'm IMC qualified, I may well be flying quadrantal rule (or can easily adjust my height to do so), and receiving a basic service. VFR/IFR hasn't been discussed, no flight plan has been filed -I'm just flying in open FIR. And there's a big bank of cloud in front of me - so I elect to fly through it, as there's no reason not to. What do you want me to tell you? Serious question, as I really cannot recall ever being taught this and am pretty certain that there's nothing in CAP 413 about it either.

This is a good one Big G with a few potential answers all dependent on different things.

Ultimately as a controller I'll provide you with the service you ask for. If you are in receipt of a BS that is all you will get, whether you are VMC or IMC. I could pass you the weather and all sorts of other pieces of information that I feel is essential for the 'safe and efficient conduct of flight'. I will also do my best to provide you with any information you request. What do I want you to tell me? You can tell me whatever you like we can have a chat about anything Unless absolutely necessary to impose a type of service upon you (in the utmost extreme) you will receive what you ask for.

It would be prudent for a pilot to ask for a higher level of service if entering IMC in the open FIR. Also it its a good idea all around to take a Traffic Service if flying within or through busy areas regardless of the met conditions as you will have much improved SA.

As a pilot I for one will not enter cloud without a TS generally; I'd perhaps contemplate doing so on a BS for a very short time i.e. plundering through a single 'fair weather' cu. A DS is really not required for my type of flying or probably most GA flying.

It is quite a harsh statement to make, but it not unusual for aircraft to go scud running on BS and lose comms behind hills etc. The pilot is ultimately responsible for terrain and collision avoidance... except the few circumstances involving vectoring.

FBW did a great job and any pilot should be thankful that someone took a moment to find relevant information. The only thing I'd like to mention on the reported weather issue is that METARs give cloud above aerodrome level as opposed to AMSL. Without a chart to hand I don't know the elevations of the aerodromes concerned, but where the cloud was reported as 300ft potentially at an elevation of 300ft, it could be possible to fly at 550ft AGL VFR in VMC and not break rule 5.

Just my thoughts :-)

Edit: Controlling in arguably one of the busiest areas of the UK, I'd to add that I am more than happy to visit your flying club or school of an evening to discuss either informally or by presentation the pros, cons and practicalities of ATSOCAS if required. Sometimes it can be daunting 'coping with the fat controller' (Beyond the PPL, Chapter 12, Nigel Everett, 2005, AFE).

[Gertrude the Wombat]

So, controllers - I'm on a long leg, I'm IMC qualified, I may well be flying quadrantal rule (or can easily adjust my height to do so), and receiving a basic service. VFR/IFR hasn't been discussed, no flight plan has been filed -I'm just flying in open FIR. And there's a big bank of cloud in front of me - so I elect to fly through it, as there's no reason not to. What do you want me to tell you? Serious question, as I really cannot recall ever being taught this and am pretty certain that there's nothing in CAP 413 about it either.

In response to "traffic passing left to right two miles ahead no height information" I replied "thanks, we're IMC just now". The controller continued to call traffic, and we continued to ignore any that wasn't explicitly at our level, on the grounds that at least 99.999% of it was going to be beneath the cloud base, not messing around in the clouds just for the hell of it as we were. (This was an IMCr navex, real cloud was much more educative than wearing a hood.)

[GeeWhizz]

In response to "traffic passing left to right two miles ahead no height information" I replied "thanks, we're IMC just now".

Had exactly the same scenario just a few months back just after asking for a descent through a 2000ft layer of cloud to VMC. 'No height information' isn't helpful, but the clock code and distance were as it gave me an idea of when to descend.

E.g....

"Traffic right two o'clock 4 miles crossing right to left no height information."
"Roger nothing seen IMC maintaining 3500ft"

"Traffic 12 o'clock 2 miles opposite direction no height information"
(S**t, better not descend here then!) "Roger still IMC"

"Traffic left 11 o'clock 2 miles crossing right to left no height information"
"Roger request descent to VMC".

"Descend to 1500ft report VMC below"

It took a while, but was still useful... wouldn't want to be in this situation on a BS

[Genghis the Engineer]

All good stuff.

Okay my approach: "G-_ _ _ _ is now india-mike, request traffic service", and if required (and I remember!) adjust my altitude to maintain quadrantal rule. That's if it looks like I'm going to be IMC for more than a minute or so, otherwise frankly I have just got on with it and not bothered anybody.

But the lack of anybody saying "don't you know anything Genghis, CAP*** clearly says to....." says to me very strongly that there's a big gap in UK national procedures here. There should be standard RT for this, and approved standard practices, and there clearly aren't.


Incidentally, a couple of our ATC chums have said that they are obliged to give the service I ask for. Sorry, but airbollox. On numerous occasions I have been refused traffic / radar-information service when visibility is deteriorating and I've asked for it to be on the safe side (one instance for example is flying directly into the setting sun, good VFR, but still can't see aircraft on reciprocal and conflicting tracks). The common factor seems to be that I've been flying something with no transponder. I've also had even a basic service cancelled on me on a number of occasions the moment I am out of somebody's CAS and heading away from it, despite there being no obvious next service provider and any likely conflict will be with traffic approaching that CAS from the opposite direction. There are in my opinion definitely a proportion of controllers who regard BS/TS as solely about deconflicting me with THEIR traffic, and they have no interest in what pilots themselves might want or think they need.

I suspect that any controllers posting here are very much amongst the "good guys", otherwise they simply wouldn't show the interest to be reading this forum and posting here. But the attitudes shown on this thread are not, in my experience, universal.

G

[dont overfil]

The way I understand it concerning the current discussion.

In class G telling the Fiso or controller your in flight conditions and therefore rules is sensible and good airmanship. In controlled airspace it is a legal requirement.

For the record conditions at Perth were not VFR.

D.O.

[mad_jock]

I did think the current bun article was unfortunately funny.

The dirty Police pilot trying to mount an aero dyn in flight with a eurocopter.

I think a more usefull description would have been the police helli was shepherding a light aircraft back to safety.

And I would think the pilot was IFR and IFR being I Follow Roads.

[bookworm]

So, controllers - I'm on a long leg, I'm IMC qualified, I may well be flying quadrantal rule (or can easily adjust my height to do so), and receiving a basic service. VFR/IFR hasn't been discussed, no flight plan has been filed -I'm just flying in open FIR. And there's a big bank of cloud in front of me - so I elect to fly through it, as there's no reason not to. What do you want me to tell you? Serious question, as I really cannot recall ever being taught this and am pretty certain that there's nothing in CAP 413 about it either.

I'm not a controller, but I have a view on this. ATC is interested in the service that you require. If you're happy to fly through the IMC on a basic service (or traffic service) then you don't need to say anything to ATC. If you want a deconfliction service, then ask for it early, don't wait until the conflicting traffic is called!

A common mistake having declared ifr is to believe that because you are in open fir you can deviate from the declared height. You shouldnt because the controller is entitled to expect you to maintain height unless you inform him to the contrary.

No so Fuji. ATC expects you to report changes in level on a traffic service or deconfliction service (or a procedural service, though I can't imagine why you wouldn't ask first). Flight rules are irrelevant.

Happened to me on the way to the Sherburn meet in March, I was crossing Doncaster zone on a VFR Traffic service no higher than 2,500'. It was good vis but there was a lot of cloud around at varying levels. The good lady controller passed me some crossing traffic just as I popped into some scud (you couldn't really fly around it, you would just fly into some more and it went down quite a bit), I called 'IMC this instant, watching on exit' which was literally one or two seconds later.

Controlled airspace is a different game entirely. Before you cross, you ask for a clearance either under VFR or under IFR. If you elect to cross under VFR, you must maintain VMC, because the controller may ask you to separate visually from other traffic. A VFR flight in controlled airspace that enters IMC is, in effect, an emergency.

[Talkdownman]

Originally Posted by dont overfil

In class G telling the Fiso or controller your in flight conditions and therefore rules

Not 'therefore'. They are different things. One's a set of met conditions, the other's a set of flight rules. They are not inextricably linked, ie. In IMC - IFR.
In VMC - VFR or IFR.

Originally Posted by thing

I called 'IMC this instant, watching on exit' which was literally one or two seconds later. She called ' Can I remind you that you are on a VFR transit.'

Whilst on a ATC VFR clearance within CAS it is a condition to remain in VMC. Under such circumstances there is no option, or discretion, to enter IMC, even temporarily.

[dont overfil]

Talkdownman, you are of course correct. Poor english.

For the record conditions at Perth were not VFR.

This was also incorrect. What I should have said was conditions were not good enough to permit flight under VFR.

D.O.

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by Genghis the Engineer

So, controllers - I'm on a long leg, I'm IMC qualified, I may well be flying quadrantal rule (or can easily adjust my height to do so), and receiving a basic service. VFR/IFR hasn't been discussed, no flight plan has been filed -I'm just flying in open FIR. And there's a big bank of cloud in front of me - so I elect to fly through it, as there's no reason not to. What do you want me to tell you? Serious question, as I really cannot recall ever being taught this and am pretty certain that there's nothing in CAP 413 about it either.

GeeWiz gives a good answer. My experience is broadly consistent. The controllers seem to treat the IFR/VFR status (in class G) as broadly irrelevant, hence, I don't mention it (virtually every flight I undertake is UK IFR as in my view there is nothing useful and safe I can do VFR that I can't do IFR). However, I have found that if you mention you are in IMC that can help bounce you up from a BS to a TS priority level. (as in 'G-xyzd (not me) request Traffic service' reply, 'unable BS only due to controller work load', 'G-ME request Traffic Service, currently IMC', reply 'Traffic Service squawk 4521').

[peterh337]

I agree with mm_flynn above.

Controllers don't seem to care if you are VMC or IMC, in Class G. Even after you've told them you are in IMC, they still pass you traffic

I find this thread very confusing. What were this pilot's actual flight conditions? I don't suppose anybody knows, except him. I would bet he was VMC but got lost above an overcast because he had no means of navigation.

[mad_jock]

What were this pilot's actual flight conditions?

I would say its what we would deem in scotland as "****e"

And I would presume that he was actually on a GPS and then his bottle went when he got into "skimmed milk" conditions. Which isn't suprising when you fly towards a body of water.

As a matter of interest what was Dundee and Leuchars like?

[Fuji Abound]

A common mistake having declared ifr is to believe that because you are in open fir you can deviate from the declared height. You shouldnt because the controller is entitled to expect you to maintain height unless you inform him to the contrary.

No so Fuji. ATC expects you to report changes in level on a traffic service or deconfliction service (or a procedural service, though I can't imagine why you wouldn't ask first). Flight rules are irrelevant.

Bookie - I didn't say otherwise as my comment was with specific reference to IFR. You might be IFR under a basic service (if that is all that is available) and you might think just like VFR under a basic service you can change level as you wish.

I agree whether IFR of VFR under any surveillance service you are expected to report changes in level, and indeed I would expect the pilot to ask first although I don't think he strictly has any obligation to do so in open FIR?

[VMC-on-top]

The controllers seem to treat the IFR/VFR status (in class G) as broadly irrelevant, hence, I don't mention it

This is very concerning - so you opt for IFR lets say, primarily for traffic separation and the controllers don't treat you any differently to VFR? Perhaps FBW could comment? Do you mean IFR, as in CAS or IFR OCAS?

However, I have found that if you mention you are in IMC that can help bounce you up from a BS to a TS priority level. (as in 'G-xyzd (not me) request Traffic service' reply, 'unable BS only due to controller work load', 'G-ME request Traffic Service, currently IMC', reply 'Traffic Service squawk 4521').

You could still request a TS although VFR. You don't have to be IFR to request TS.

[soaringhigh650]

On numerous occasions I have been refused traffic / radar-information service when ...... There are in my opinion definitely a proportion of controllers who regard BS/TS as solely about deconflicting me with THEIR traffic, and they have no interest in what pilots themselves might want or think they need.

If you were talking to Approach they would be primarily interested in sequencing and separating aircraft to and from the airports they look after.

If you were talking to Center they would be primarily interested in separating en-route IFR aircraft in controlled airspace.

Above that (e.g. VFR transition over terminal airspace) is subject to traffic /workload at the time.

If you are cleared VFR through terminal airspace, you must maintain VFR. Suddenly declaring you're going IFR half way through it is going to cause a headache to the controller and others around you. So if you are going IFR declare it early (having ideally filed that flight plan) and be ready to note down your clearance through en-route controlled airspace so you can get some better looking after along the way.

[GeeWhizz]

All good discussion here. As with all of aviation there are many if's and buts; I'll pick up on a few points if I may...

Once talking to a LARS unit it doesn't matter what level you are flying at, quadrantal or otherwise. The quad system is limited in its usefulness, which is mainly when flying IFR without being in receipt of an ATC service. Once under some kind of 'control' (read 'facilitation' in the open FIR) the quadrantal rule may be thrown out of the window and you may maintain your own level or be allocated another for separation purposes. Of course individual controllers may ask you to climb or descend for the correct quad.

Also it is nice to know the flight conditions but more to gauge whether an aircraft will become visual with something else when called. The rules are the rules so whether you will or will not see what you are being told about, you will be made aware of it. This also has its uses (see my last post).

If you are IMC then you may, even under TS, ask for 'deconfliction advice', in which case expect to be given 'avoiding action' upon which you will be expected to accept, but say so if you cannot. Avoiding action will take you 5 miles clear of conflicting traffic clear of CAS and above the terrain safe level (other rules apply to AA below the TSL).

Under a TS it is customary to tell your friendly controller what you are doing: turning, climbing, descending etc. Under a DS you should really be asking. Under these two services within class G airspace you may be separated against without knowing it, purely due to the expectation that you are monitored and information will flow from ground to air and vice versa.

As for being refused services I'm a little surprised. This shouldn't happen whether you have an operational transponder or not. SSR isn't the only way to identify an aircraft. So unless the controlling unit simply didn't have the equipment to identify you Genghis there should be no reason to refuse. I agree that there are some places that look after their own traffic, rather than providing the best possible service to everyone. It's a practice that I try not to fall into and can only provide assurance that it wont happen on my frequencies!

Lastly it is a fact OCAS that as far as controlling goes, it is the type of service that makes a difference, not the flight rules or met conditions. mm_flynn is quite right in that if the weather isn't great more attention is usually applied. It is very worrying to lose scud runners behind hills in poor met, trust me! A reduced service is normally available even during periods of high controller workload.

Sorry guys but I know nothing of ops within CAS from the controlling side, but as a fellow GA pilot what has been mentioned so far makes sense. A clearance is a clearance and it must be met at all times within the specified conditions.

That's all for now :-)

[bookworm]

Bookie - I didn't say otherwise as my comment was with specific reference to IFR. You might be IFR under a basic service (if that is all that is available) and you might think just like VFR under a basic service you can change level as you wish.

And you would be correct! There is no requirement to report a change of level under IFR or VFR when under a BS.

I agree whether IFR of VFR under any surveillance service you are expected to report changes in level, and indeed I would expect the pilot to ask first although I don't think he strictly has any obligation to do so in open FIR?

The "contract" under a TS or DS requires you to advise any change of level, even under VFR. See CAP 774. I've been there, done that, and got the T-shirt, courtesy of a slightly grumpy Brize controller.

[bookworm]

Quote: "The controllers seem to treat the IFR/VFR status (in class G) as broadly irrelevant, hence, I don't mention it"

This is very concerning - so you opt for IFR lets say, primarily for traffic separation and the controllers don't treat you any differently to VFR? Perhaps FBW could comment? Do you mean IFR, as in CAS or IFR OCAS?

He wrote "in class G", which is OCAS. The whole point about class G is that traffic separation is not provided. If airspace is busy enough that IFR flights need separating, it would be controlled airspace.

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by VMC-on-top

You could still request a TS although VFR. You don't have to be IFR to request TS.

Fully aware of that. The point I was trying to make is that on days when controllers are rejecting requests for TS and offering only BS, I have found that telling them you are in IMC puts you up the queue for receiving a Traffic Service.

[GeeWhizz]

But the lack of anybody saying "don't you know anything Genghis, CAP*** clearly says to....." says to me very strongly that there's a big gap in UK national procedures here. There should be standard RT for this, and approved standard practices, and there clearly aren't.

Just had a quick look at CAP413. There is an example on page 28 of chapter 11 of an aircraft going from VFR to IFR. With a little bit of rearranging it can be used for flight in VMC OCAS entering IMC.

e.g. "G-CD entering IMC request TS/DS"

Edit: The bottom of chapter 11 page 20 is useful too:

"Wrayton Information, G-CD, descending due weather. Changing to Westbury Approach for Traffic Service"

Little G