PPL cross country

[merces leitfer]

dear guys

I will be doing my check ride in few days, i am terribly worried as i often fail or slip my standard when i am being watched ,do you guys have any suggestion about what he will ask and what is mistake allowance.

thankyou

[kevmusic]

You wouldn't be the same poster who asked about landings, would you?

Dear Guys
I am writing here today to clear some confusion about landing.

I fly or shall i say i am learning to fly P28. POH, forums , other pilots and my instructor say touchdown speed is 60 knots. I touchdown at below 50 or even touching 40 knots, just seconds before touchdown my yoke is completely pulled back thereby reducing speed to 40-50 way below then poh speed. yet there is no stall warning or rough land .my landing is very smooth, plane gently touches down on runway,no stall beep or any landing discomfort.

Now my reason for asking this question is am i wrong. Am i walking on the thatched roof at 2000 feet or since i am of minuscule weight i should be OK.

thank you.

Same style, same use of English (ok, not easy for a foreigner), same point in time. Odd.

[Humaround]

Nah, the other one is much younger...

[riverrock83]

The tolerances are written into the regulations. If your inductor didn't think you were ready for it he wouldn't put you forward, so do it with confidence.

On a completely different question, I'd like some advice on organising my flight log during cross country. My instructor advocates writing time at location on map but getting lid off pen, not losing lid, placing map on hard surface while still keeping plane level (plane I've been learning in rolls left so can't just trim) and looking out is getting beyond me. I was keeping lid off pen but that way I need a new pen every flight as it dries out.
My instructor has sent me off to think of a system that will work for me.
I'm thinking of either using a china graph pencil which won't dry out or use pencil and paper for Log.
Any advice?
I appologise for attempted thread hijack.
Thanks

[Piper.Classique]

Riverrock, what I do is to get the maps on CD, print out the route of any particular flight, and carry a separate map covering a larger area for major diversions. This gives me a throwaway map printed on ordinary paper that is easier to handle in flight. I hang a biro on a string round my neck and can scribble away as much as I like. If I want to write down a clearance or whatever I have an A5 kneepad strapped to my leg with the plog. Anything more, turn the map over and use the back. The kneepad provides the necessary hard surface.

[Whopity]

Does Malaysia still use the old UK system of a navigation test prior to the solo X-Ctry, or is it conducted as part of the PPL Skill Test after the solo X-Ctry?

I suspect it may be the former, in which case the examiner is concerned with determining that you have a logical method of navigation and fuel planning and that you won't get lost or infringe airspace. You must also apply common sense and demonstrate good decision making throughout. If it is the latter, it is simply an independent check of something you have already done before.

[caber0]

Riverrock, I use a properly folded map with a plog bulldog clipped to the back, this is small enough to handle and solid enough to write on. I use a retractable sharpie to write on map and have laminated both plog form and knee pad form so I use the same pen on everything. Retractable Sharpies can by bought from Rymans. They are pretty chunky but easier than pulling caps off and inevitably dropping them on the floor at some point!

Caber

[jxc]

Get your instructor to hold the map and pen when you are not using them he can then pass them to you when needed, Gives him something to do.

[riverrock83]

Thanks very much caber / PC.
I can understand printing out a map for longer sorties but thought I should be able to fold a traditional map for shorter training ones. Mind you a new map version of my area has just been published so I'll give this more thought.

I have been through lots of shops looking for retractable sharpies but came up empty handed.
I'll go try Rymans.
The last place I tried didn't have chinagraph pencils either. Thanks for the tip.

"A properly folded map"
I have been folding my 1:50 000 so that just my route is visible, normally making something up to about A4 size. Twice now my instructor has said that by folding so small I miss key features useful for "gross error checks" such as arran, which has been well off course.
I have already though found the joys of bulldog clips
I found the 1:250 000 unmanagable (tried a few times) although in busy areas can be useful (finding cumbernauld...).
So how do you fold yours?

[BackPacker]

I just fold and refold en-route as required.

Mind you, I'm not using laminated maps (they are a bitch to fold) but the paper Jeppesen VFR+GPS ones.

The route line is just drawn with a lead pencil, and for all other information I keep a plog, with headings, distances and ETE/ETA/ATA. I hate scribbling numbers on the map itself since there's never enough room to include both the heading and ETE.

[Grob Queen]

Map folding and scribbling on

Riverrock,

If on Navex I use a laminated colour copy of the route, with route, fuel, timings, turning points etc plotted. This means that it is a much smaller example of the half mil and only needs to be folded and stuck with sellotape. I also have a knee pad. I scribble QFE/QNH, Barnsley and Chatham RPS, any frequencies or clearances etc on that with a china graph which I keep in my flying suit arm pocket. also use the china graph to scribble on teh map if needed.

If I am flying local area, I take my half mil folded fr correct area and fastened with bulldog clips. I also have a local area map card in my kneeboard literally just with the surrounding airfields and their frequencies.

If I am not using the map, I just put it down the left hand side of my seat, fits in well and doesn't constitute FOD!

By the way, an aircraft that won't trim and rolls?!! Wouldn't fancy learning in that...

[BackPacker]

By the way, an aircraft that won't trim and rolls?!! Wouldn't fancy learning in that..

A lot of light aircraft can only be trimmed in pitch, not in roll or yaw. If there is a weight imbalance left/right, for instance due to fuel mismanagement (PA28) or because you're flying solo while the aircraft is rigged for dual, or because of general wear and tear of the airframe, or dirt on the wings, whatever, it will display a slight tendency to roll.

Ideally this is countered with aileron but that quickly gets tedious, particularly if you need your hands free for some other tasks. The other technique is to counter it with a tiny bit of rudder. This will lead to the aircraft flying slightly out of balance, so it'll be less efficient, but at least you've got your hands free, and a steady aircraft, to attend to other tasks.

On the other hand, a lot of student don't even get the pitch trim right, so they need to fly hands-on all the time anyway, and won't even notice the roll forces because of the higher pitch forces required to keep the aircraft level.

[riverrock83]

Yes there is pitch trim which I'm very familiar with. There is a fixed trim tab which my instructors has adjusted but it is at its limit. My issue is that I have a habit of adding back pressure when constantly stopping the roll when I'm not looking out so looking down at the map and writing things down causes problems!

How do people document their flights? I'm told I need to record the time at way points. On the map or on a separate piece of paper (with plog)? I've been taught to do it on map but as long as it's recorded instructor doesn't mind how.

I'm interested in GQ's laminated route. Is this a mini copy of map with all details written on in lieu of a written spreadsheet style PLOG?

[Grob Queen]

Riverrock,
I have just PM'd you. Hope it helps! I certainly find the laminated smaller half mil much easier in the cockpit, and that was my instructor's recommendation.

I don't pretend to be an expert, but heavy holding of the stick was one of my problems, so perhaps try a lighter touch on the stick to prevent the back pressure? As has been proved to me, if the aircraft is fully trimmed, it'll fly along quite nicely, giving you more time to look at the chart. Also, another tip my instructor gave me, if you hold the chart up against the stick/yoke, orientated in the direction of flight, you will be able to have a light touch on the controls, whilst trying to find your way....

Just a thought, please discuss this with your instructor as I say, i'm no expert, this is jsut what I have been taught and find helpful.

Rgds
GQ

[BackPacker]

How do people document their flights? I'm told I need to record the time at way points. On the map or on a separate piece of paper (with plog)? I've been taught to do it on map but as long as it's recorded instructor doesn't mind how.

Think of this: Why do you record your flights?

The CAA only requires a logbook entry, which is brakes off to brakes on plus details like the aircraft type, reg and callsign. Anything else is not required from a legal perspective. Nobody is going to care at what time you passed a certain waypoint, once the flight is over. Unless you busted controlled airspace or something like that.

Having said that, during the flight you will want to keep track of your progress. ATC might want to know the time you will arrive at a next waypoint (if under some kind of ATC service). You will want to arrive at your destination before the fuel runs out. And you will want to start looking for your next turning point a minute or two before reaching it. In other words: the time you pass a waypoint is important to you for the next leg of your flight.

So before the flight starts you calculate the ETE (estimated time en-route) for each leg. At the start of each leg you note (don't have to write this down, but is convenient) the ATA (actual time of arrival), and you add the ATA and the ETE together to get the ETA (estimated time of arrival) at the next waypoint. That is something you write down. You then set the course, power and everything as planned, and merrily fly along. Until about two minutes before the ETA, where you start looking for your turning point and the whole process repeats itself. And once you're over your turning point, it is very important to check the (actual) ATA against the (predicted) ETA.

This whole process has a few important purposes:
- It gives you the time when you need to start looking for a waypoint, and if you don't find your waypoint within a few minutes, you can initiate the 'unsure of position' procedures.
- It gives you a way of determining deviations from the plan - when the ATA and ETA are not the same. This can happen for instance because the aircraft is not performing as intended, or there is more headwind than forecast, or something else. And it allows you to update your plan while still in the air. Particularly if you're on a flight where fuel is marginal, where it allows you to decide to divert with sufficient fuel remaining.

So to summarize, it's not the recording of time per se that's important. What's important is to compare the estimated times in your plog to the actuals, and spot any deviations from your plan in time to do something about it.

Personally, I find it more convenient to use a dedicated plog for this, as my maps tend to have too much detail, and not enough white space, to write all these numbers down on the map. But that's also because I fly in Holland most of the time, which is very densely populated and has a very complicated airspace structure, so lots of stuff printed on the map already.

[riverrock83]

Thanks BP
I have found that once I include expected heading, altitude, duration, fuel circles and last waypoint time on top of airspace, landscape and other features on the map, my map has got quite cluttered and hard to read, so using a paper is something I'm considering (and this is in the less congested Scottish FIR). I'm just worried about the additional workload required to match a paper plog entry to a location on a map (so looking in two places and separate pieces of paper). GQ has PMed me with a variation of writing on a map which might sort me out though.

I have been taught to fly for a duration rather than to a time, although when talking to a FIS (like Scottish Info) I then need to convert that into a time at destination. By flying to a duration I can easily tell that being 1 minute out of a 20 minute leg could mean a 5% headwind difference, rather than being 1 minute out of a 5 minute leg, which could mean something quite different. I think I'll follow my instructor on this one (no offence meant!). Writing it all down though is something, as I've said, I'm thinking about.

The reason I've been given to record waypoint time (and not "otherwise you'll fail your skills test") is so that if my stop watch fails (the stopwatch in the aircraft seems to fail on an alarmingly regular basis when my instructor is with me but never when he isn't...) then I can re-workout current duration and continue on plan. Otherwise a stopwatch and a duration alone would appear to also cover your thoughts.

Is it just personal preference (and what you are trained to do) then that determines whether people write on maps or whether they write on paper? What do people do post-PPL? Most in GA I suspect use a GPS device. Do you also print out a PLOG, mark a route on a map and record progress - "following the magenta line" but still have enough information elsewhere if the device fails? If so - if you record that on paper then perhaps that I should get used to that from the start?

[BackPacker]

What do people do post-PPL?

For me, it just depends on the type of flight.

When I'm going to fly aerobatics in my usual spot (just outside the CTR), I just fill up the aircraft with fuel for 2.5 hours (for an intended flight time of an hour), start her up and head out. I don't create a plog, and I normally don't even open my map during the flight because I know that area from memory. It just sits there in my kneeboard "just in case". The only thing I write down on a scrap piece of paper, or the back of my hand, are the tacho and off blocks/on blocks times.

When I'm doing a relatively short x-country, with plenty of fuel on board, I typically create a minimal plog with a few waypoints, bearings and distances. That's either a separate plog, or a few numbers scribbled on the map. I don't do any wind correction or accurate heading/ETE calculation but just correct for wind as I go along. Unless I know that I'll be facing a howling headwind, in which case I don't go.

On long x-countries, particularly if there's a channel crossing involved, I typically go all the way, making a proper wind corrected plog with all the bells and whistles. That plog will also include my fuel planning, so that I can check whether the aircraft is using more or less fuel than expected. (Although the gauges in the aircraft are really not that accurate, so that fuel planning has to be taken with a pinch of salt, and a huge reserve in any case.)

the stopwatch in the aircraft seems to fail on an alarmingly regular basis

I have actually never used a stopwatch to time my legs. Just an analog or digital watch, or the clock of the aircraft, or the clock of the GPS. Whatever was convenient.

At the PPL level, the exam objectives are +/- 5 minutes, if I recall correctly. Any timepiece will do for that.

[ppl_fresher]

What do people do post-PPL?

GPS...

The less flippant answer: For anything more than 100nm-ish, I plan the flight in Skydemon and print off the PLOG. Have skydemon up on the ipad, and programme the route into the onboard GPS. Then at each turning point, sanity check the GPS (map to ground); Twist, Turn, Time, Talk; noting the ATA and setting the stopwatch to monitor the next leg.

I still fly the calculated heading (using the GPS to correct), and could trivially drop back in the case of GPS failure/jamming (as briefly happened to me the other day just west of CPT). The onboard GPS gives me very accurate and reliable tracking, and skydemon on the ipad gives me airspace avoidance.

(Although the gauges in the aircraft are really not that accurate, so that fuel planning has to be taken with a pinch of salt, and a huge reserve in any case.)

Install some kind of fuel totaliser... I'm having an EDM put in next week - up until now I've operated on at least 1.5 hours reserves, with a 10% fudge factor (the TB10 fuel gauges are completely non-linear). The added benefit is that accurate leaning should now be possible, hopefully saving a few percent.

[BackPacker]

Install some kind of fuel totaliser...

Not typically allowed in a rental...

[riverrock83]

Originally Posted by BackPacker

I have actually never used a stopwatch to time my legs. Just an analog or digital watch, or the clock of the aircraft, or the clock of the GPS. Whatever was convenient.
At the PPL level, the exam objectives are +/- 5 minutes, if I recall correctly. Any timepiece will do for that.

Apologies if it wasn't obvious - the stop watch kept breaking as my instructor occasionally hides it to make sure that I can cope (and to make sure I've been writing down my progress!).

PPL_fresher - yes I assumed that GPS is normally used when needing to do Nav. What I was looking for is to see if it is sensible to learn an approach now to nav that I'll be able to modify only slightly in the future if / when I go down that route post PPL. You do of course have a paper map with you also - don't you

BP - sounds like you don't stick to a hardened fast rule when doing nav - which is my instructor's opinion also - why he said he was happy for me to go away and create a system that works for me rather than relying on a technique that I've been struggling with.

I know the output (to get to a location after coping with any problems along the way with recorded progress) and the input (aeroplane details / wind / waypoints etc). Its just how to get from one to the other that there are different opinions about that I've been trying to gather. Thanks for your contributions.