Thread removal.
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I hope we all learn something from that thread ? That is not just the forum members but GEP and pprune too and Towers !! More than that I don't want to say as it won't be constructive.
Pace
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 25th May 2012 at 16:36.
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Personally
I thought, as a thread, it demonstrated admirably why you really need courts, with judges, evidence & a jury to decide people's guilt rather than the mob "mentality" judge, jury & executioner (usually by kicking to death) you see in the 3rd world in places like Cambodia, South African ghettos & PPRuNe.
Last edited by PompeyPaul; 26th May 2012 at 00:41.
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Originally Posted by pompeypaul
I thought, as a thread, it demonstrated admirably why you need courts, with judges & jury to decide people's guilt etc rather than the 3rd world mob judge, jury & excutioner you see in the 3rd world like Cambodia, Vietnam & PPRuNe.
Can't for the life of me work out why it would have been better to leave it to the authorities and run the risk of it going pear shape.
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Get real.
The deleted thread was quite clearly linked to the other great GEP/PPRadar forum subject. In that, GEP commented on an unusual event where he spotted an individual possibly linked to RW who he then investigated , at length. It apparently turned out that ths individual may not have had a valid medical. GEP then, after apparently informing the CAA and seeing no viable response , decided to share too much detail with us. Did it categorically prevent a great tragedy or, as you put it, something from going pear shape? No.
This place has far too much implied character assassination without accountability. Yes, accusations may well be factually correct but please do not think that a post by an anonymous individual on a pilot specific forum has stopped some poor, unsuspecting individual from being killed by a pilot may be outside the detail of the law.
This whole debacle tells me a number of things. There are individuals here who have decided to adopt the role of aviation police because they tell us hey feel the CAA aren't doing things properly. They hide behind the line of flight safety first and foremost. The reality is that, whilst the intentions may be honorable, the method and manner of delivery is most definitely dishonorable.
You know, the really sad thing is that by posting the above, I fully expect to be ridiculed, undermined and targetted as an individual who, not agreeing with the rather convenient multiple poster and tame moderator party line, will be marginalized and maybe banned. I now see very little professionalism here and wonder what the founder of this once fine forum actually thinks.
The deleted thread was quite clearly linked to the other great GEP/PPRadar forum subject. In that, GEP commented on an unusual event where he spotted an individual possibly linked to RW who he then investigated , at length. It apparently turned out that ths individual may not have had a valid medical. GEP then, after apparently informing the CAA and seeing no viable response , decided to share too much detail with us. Did it categorically prevent a great tragedy or, as you put it, something from going pear shape? No.
This place has far too much implied character assassination without accountability. Yes, accusations may well be factually correct but please do not think that a post by an anonymous individual on a pilot specific forum has stopped some poor, unsuspecting individual from being killed by a pilot may be outside the detail of the law.
This whole debacle tells me a number of things. There are individuals here who have decided to adopt the role of aviation police because they tell us hey feel the CAA aren't doing things properly. They hide behind the line of flight safety first and foremost. The reality is that, whilst the intentions may be honorable, the method and manner of delivery is most definitely dishonorable.
You know, the really sad thing is that by posting the above, I fully expect to be ridiculed, undermined and targetted as an individual who, not agreeing with the rather convenient multiple poster and tame moderator party line, will be marginalized and maybe banned. I now see very little professionalism here and wonder what the founder of this once fine forum actually thinks.
Pompey till I die
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Callous
Let's face it, how many threads have we seen on here talking about dead pilots with people, staggeringly, posting "He deserved it, he was an idiot" and stuff like that. It is a nasty, unpalatable and completely callous side to this board that I've always disliked.
I wonder if those posters are arm chair activists or whether they say stuff like that in real life? Would they really go to somebody's funeral and publicly tell the family, and everyone there, "Well he drank far to much and totally deserved to die and he was a bit of an idiot too got his just deserts really" ?
For some reason, being on a forum makes some people think it's all right to conduct yourself as a total ****. I use that swear word justly, some of the posts I've seen on here over the years have been breathtakingly awful.
I wonder if those posters are arm chair activists or whether they say stuff like that in real life? Would they really go to somebody's funeral and publicly tell the family, and everyone there, "Well he drank far to much and totally deserved to die and he was a bit of an idiot too got his just deserts really" ?
For some reason, being on a forum makes some people think it's all right to conduct yourself as a total ****. I use that swear word justly, some of the posts I've seen on here over the years have been breathtakingly awful.
Last edited by PompeyPaul; 26th May 2012 at 00:47.
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I must admit I find it quite incredible that after the thread had been removed, so many people chose to perpetuate its content by referral by name and even by explaining to the lessor computer literate how to find it again using Google cache.
The thread (as has been stated previously) was removed at a point in time when it was seen to have achieved the desired result. For the sake of clarity the posting was nothing to do with her association with Weaver or indeed anything other than a genuine desire to try to prevent both a potential accident and the person continuing to create themselves a greater potential personal problem.
Perhaps the explanation of the steps that were taken by various people to try to explain to Indy (prior to posting on here) the merits and risks of her actions need repeating. So here goes:
Indy herself had stated to me that she had the angioplasty, which is a treatment to try to reverse a problem that in its self is extremely serious and life threatening. The underlying problem causes restriction of blood to the heart and causes inefficiency in the heart. It is exasperated by altitude (as the air gets thinner). I was told by a doctor that to help understand the implications of flying following an angioplasty (even as a passenger - until medically cleared) consideration should be made to how even a fit person will feel after going up a few thousand feet for a days fun at the ski resort, should a persons heart be affected by damage or disease then of course the effect will be compounded. I have good friends who are doctors and prior to any posting I spent time trying to discover if going flying was a real risk for someone following an angioplasty and just the extent of the real threat. I know the CAA are clear, its an automatic minimum 6 months of no flying medical following an angioplasty, but I needed to establish in my own mind if it was a real risk and balance that fact with what will probably be seemed as a selfish equation - should I remain silent on the matter and let fate run its course and thus prevent any personal criticism or is the risk to both herself and to others based on what facts I had established too great to remain silent.
A doctor described a person following angioplasty in the scenario described as a person playing Russian roulette not only with their own life but the life of others, with an unknown number of bullets in the chambers of the revolver. Legally something which should not happen but in reality something that was happening. It was said to me that I should consider a parallel situation of an apparently drunk driver - one that you had witnessed drinking in the pub but visibly struggling to function, should you ignore it and not say something to anyone (the potential passengers of the car - even if they are strangers) call the Police quietly and hope that they can get to the person to check that they are fit to drive or wait until after the person has crashed maybe killing a passenger on the way and then say to all your friends - yes I saw them drinking and they were drunk, bound to have happened.
In addition to this she decided to use her own aircraft to give a trial lesson after the ARC had expired. That was on a day when the weather at best was marginal VFR, I know as I flew that day. Due to the visibility that day the workload for a pilot was high.
Indy was approached by various people to try to get her to stop flying prior to the post. She ignored that. It was done quietly at that stage to help prevent embarrassment for her.
It should be remembered that angioplasty is a procedure that is ONLY ever done to help someone with a very serious life threatening condition. In terms of threat to flying activities and fitness to fly afterwards it requires more intensive tests to confirm that a person is fit to fly than someone who has had a heart attack.
Publishing the fact that Indy had an angioplasty was to draw attention to the severity of her health issues. They are unseen issues, if a person is affected by a stroke then the issues are often very visible but not in the case of someone with heart disease. She had no personal issue telling a stranger of her condition.
So to recap on the facts, Indy had made public to a stranger the nature of her health issues and treatment. She was very aware and understood the restrictions the issues placed upon her legal flying activities. She continued to fly and instruct. She flew her own aircraft after its ARC had expired.
The airfield that she operated at is not controlled by a control tower so it was almost impossible to get the airfield to stop her activities. The airfield has a number of people operating on it, a lot were unaware prior to the posts of her or any problems she faced
I am told that she has now stopped flying, mainly through the fact that many people at the airfield did become aware of the problems and she can not hide her activities anymore, everyone now knows who she is and is aware that she does not have a valid medical.
The thread (as has been stated previously) was removed at a point in time when it was seen to have achieved the desired result. For the sake of clarity the posting was nothing to do with her association with Weaver or indeed anything other than a genuine desire to try to prevent both a potential accident and the person continuing to create themselves a greater potential personal problem.
Perhaps the explanation of the steps that were taken by various people to try to explain to Indy (prior to posting on here) the merits and risks of her actions need repeating. So here goes:
Indy herself had stated to me that she had the angioplasty, which is a treatment to try to reverse a problem that in its self is extremely serious and life threatening. The underlying problem causes restriction of blood to the heart and causes inefficiency in the heart. It is exasperated by altitude (as the air gets thinner). I was told by a doctor that to help understand the implications of flying following an angioplasty (even as a passenger - until medically cleared) consideration should be made to how even a fit person will feel after going up a few thousand feet for a days fun at the ski resort, should a persons heart be affected by damage or disease then of course the effect will be compounded. I have good friends who are doctors and prior to any posting I spent time trying to discover if going flying was a real risk for someone following an angioplasty and just the extent of the real threat. I know the CAA are clear, its an automatic minimum 6 months of no flying medical following an angioplasty, but I needed to establish in my own mind if it was a real risk and balance that fact with what will probably be seemed as a selfish equation - should I remain silent on the matter and let fate run its course and thus prevent any personal criticism or is the risk to both herself and to others based on what facts I had established too great to remain silent.
A doctor described a person following angioplasty in the scenario described as a person playing Russian roulette not only with their own life but the life of others, with an unknown number of bullets in the chambers of the revolver. Legally something which should not happen but in reality something that was happening. It was said to me that I should consider a parallel situation of an apparently drunk driver - one that you had witnessed drinking in the pub but visibly struggling to function, should you ignore it and not say something to anyone (the potential passengers of the car - even if they are strangers) call the Police quietly and hope that they can get to the person to check that they are fit to drive or wait until after the person has crashed maybe killing a passenger on the way and then say to all your friends - yes I saw them drinking and they were drunk, bound to have happened.
In addition to this she decided to use her own aircraft to give a trial lesson after the ARC had expired. That was on a day when the weather at best was marginal VFR, I know as I flew that day. Due to the visibility that day the workload for a pilot was high.
Indy was approached by various people to try to get her to stop flying prior to the post. She ignored that. It was done quietly at that stage to help prevent embarrassment for her.
It should be remembered that angioplasty is a procedure that is ONLY ever done to help someone with a very serious life threatening condition. In terms of threat to flying activities and fitness to fly afterwards it requires more intensive tests to confirm that a person is fit to fly than someone who has had a heart attack.
Publishing the fact that Indy had an angioplasty was to draw attention to the severity of her health issues. They are unseen issues, if a person is affected by a stroke then the issues are often very visible but not in the case of someone with heart disease. She had no personal issue telling a stranger of her condition.
So to recap on the facts, Indy had made public to a stranger the nature of her health issues and treatment. She was very aware and understood the restrictions the issues placed upon her legal flying activities. She continued to fly and instruct. She flew her own aircraft after its ARC had expired.
The airfield that she operated at is not controlled by a control tower so it was almost impossible to get the airfield to stop her activities. The airfield has a number of people operating on it, a lot were unaware prior to the posts of her or any problems she faced
I am told that she has now stopped flying, mainly through the fact that many people at the airfield did become aware of the problems and she can not hide her activities anymore, everyone now knows who she is and is aware that she does not have a valid medical.
Last edited by goldeneaglepilot; 26th May 2012 at 05:31.
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With power comes responsibility otherwise it becomes misuse.
I have posted before that Crusaders can be so blinded by what they see as their ultimate goal that they do not see the people they trad on or abuse in that quest .GEP has appointed himself and been appointed as the forum
Amateur detective and will happily state that all the information he puts up in the forums is publicly available.
It was not made publicly available to
Be taken out of context and without permission and plastered into prune for anonymous individuals to play with and make all manner of insinuations and judgements from!
Golden Eagle pilot would not like his own details, personal or otherwise plastered on an anonymous forum.
Golden Eagle pilot will call forum
Members but only from a withheld number to protect his own rights to privacy!
He cares nothing of others rights,
That is sad as he is a good man blinded by the Crusade and protected by the moderator.
There are forum
Codes of conduct which are flouted by those in power in prune yet used against posters at will.
I hope everyone learns something from
That thread
GEP yes if you have concerns go to the correct authorities with your information!
If you fail go again and again but don't allow people to be put into a home made court for ridicule and judgement by a bunch of anonymous people!
What makes you think you have the moral right to do that?
Pace
I have posted before that Crusaders can be so blinded by what they see as their ultimate goal that they do not see the people they trad on or abuse in that quest .GEP has appointed himself and been appointed as the forum
Amateur detective and will happily state that all the information he puts up in the forums is publicly available.
It was not made publicly available to
Be taken out of context and without permission and plastered into prune for anonymous individuals to play with and make all manner of insinuations and judgements from!
Golden Eagle pilot would not like his own details, personal or otherwise plastered on an anonymous forum.
Golden Eagle pilot will call forum
Members but only from a withheld number to protect his own rights to privacy!
He cares nothing of others rights,
That is sad as he is a good man blinded by the Crusade and protected by the moderator.
There are forum
Codes of conduct which are flouted by those in power in prune yet used against posters at will.
I hope everyone learns something from
That thread
GEP yes if you have concerns go to the correct authorities with your information!
If you fail go again and again but don't allow people to be put into a home made court for ridicule and judgement by a bunch of anonymous people!
What makes you think you have the moral right to do that?
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 26th May 2012 at 05:52.
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it may sometimes seem that the authorities work "too" slow, but some times their hands are tied, especially after anonymous reports. But also after non-anonymous ones.... the authorities need HARD FACTS in order to do something, not just "rumours". Yes, they will check into stuff as far as they can, but data protection laws even prevent authorities from investigating into stuff. Often the CAA or whoever is working behind the scenes which WE, on the outisde, do not see!
example: the authority receives a report on a pilot that supposedly has epilepsy yet keeps getting a medical because he is friends with the doctor. So, on that information, what can the CAA do? Ask the doc how thoroughly he checked this guy? Insist the doc provide confident information and thus incriminate himself perhaps?
It turned out, the pilot did NOT have epilepsy! The report was wrong.
Once I heard rumours (this is over 15 yrs ago and no internet back then) of a pilot who lost his medical for power gliders, but he continued to fly ultralights since the requirements were "easier". What to do? The whole club knew about it and continued to let him fly their ul. Who am I to pass on the rumours, not knowing 100% if they were true? Confront the pilot and tell him what people are saying and gets all upset with his friends for spreading (possible) false rumours?
It's a very tough situation. But as I said on the removed thread... just let people know that there is a possibly critical "situation" with a certain person and if anyone wants further information to pm the thread opener. That way it all stays private and only those involved get further information.
example: the authority receives a report on a pilot that supposedly has epilepsy yet keeps getting a medical because he is friends with the doctor. So, on that information, what can the CAA do? Ask the doc how thoroughly he checked this guy? Insist the doc provide confident information and thus incriminate himself perhaps?
It turned out, the pilot did NOT have epilepsy! The report was wrong.
Once I heard rumours (this is over 15 yrs ago and no internet back then) of a pilot who lost his medical for power gliders, but he continued to fly ultralights since the requirements were "easier". What to do? The whole club knew about it and continued to let him fly their ul. Who am I to pass on the rumours, not knowing 100% if they were true? Confront the pilot and tell him what people are saying and gets all upset with his friends for spreading (possible) false rumours?
It's a very tough situation. But as I said on the removed thread... just let people know that there is a possibly critical "situation" with a certain person and if anyone wants further information to pm the thread opener. That way it all stays private and only those involved get further information.
G
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If you have ever had any dealings with a transexual person before you wouldn't find it suprising.
Normal rules do not apply. They will have been through experences that none of us that haven't experenced them will not be able to relate to never mind comprehend.
And thats not said out of any feeling of nastyness towards there life choices. Just out of experence with having dealings with two of them one of whom tried to top themselves on company property.
Both were hilarious and out going, as one of them said "I am am a woman now, if they could only fix being ginger" Said by a ginger 45 year old 16 stone transexual scaffolder with 2 kids.
Normal rules do not apply. They will have been through experences that none of us that haven't experenced them will not be able to relate to never mind comprehend.
And thats not said out of any feeling of nastyness towards there life choices. Just out of experence with having dealings with two of them one of whom tried to top themselves on company property.
Both were hilarious and out going, as one of them said "I am am a woman now, if they could only fix being ginger" Said by a ginger 45 year old 16 stone transexual scaffolder with 2 kids.
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G
GEPs abilities as an amateur private investigator are not in question ( I state "amateur" not in a derogatory way but to highlight as far as I know he does not represent any authority or neither does he do it as a profession but as a hobby)
For me the distaste comes from a broader question of whether someone should place selected and personal material taken without permission out of the context it has been placed and put in a new context.
That context is a public forum with anonymous posters!
The anonymous is very important!
If everyone published under their real names and were accountable that is better!
Not only is it an anonymous forum but it is then a free for all to be used for entertainment , ridicule , false allegations and created into the PPRUNE court of injustice a very wrong situation which has no moral justification.
As stated GEPS work is very commendable but should not be in an entertainment forum for entertainment only but taken to the relevant authorities!
PPRUNE should use their position to make sure that the evidence is properly dealt with by professional people not amateurs!
A lot of us take great offence at some of the goings on here and the act needs tidying up!
As far as a public service I was surprised how few pilots I know even know iof Weaver or infact PPRUNe ! not as many as we think!
So GEP when I Spout on about the N reg issue not many read it ; )
We are not a court a judge and jury. People have rights to privacy as much as you do GEP although I understand from your E Mail why you protect your own anonyminity.
Sorry for any typo errors but am in south of France flying the jet I fly and stuck with I phone ; )
Pace
GEPs abilities as an amateur private investigator are not in question ( I state "amateur" not in a derogatory way but to highlight as far as I know he does not represent any authority or neither does he do it as a profession but as a hobby)
For me the distaste comes from a broader question of whether someone should place selected and personal material taken without permission out of the context it has been placed and put in a new context.
That context is a public forum with anonymous posters!
The anonymous is very important!
If everyone published under their real names and were accountable that is better!
Not only is it an anonymous forum but it is then a free for all to be used for entertainment , ridicule , false allegations and created into the PPRUNE court of injustice a very wrong situation which has no moral justification.
As stated GEPS work is very commendable but should not be in an entertainment forum for entertainment only but taken to the relevant authorities!
PPRUNE should use their position to make sure that the evidence is properly dealt with by professional people not amateurs!
A lot of us take great offence at some of the goings on here and the act needs tidying up!
As far as a public service I was surprised how few pilots I know even know iof Weaver or infact PPRUNe ! not as many as we think!
So GEP when I Spout on about the N reg issue not many read it ; )
We are not a court a judge and jury. People have rights to privacy as much as you do GEP although I understand from your E Mail why you protect your own anonyminity.
Sorry for any typo errors but am in south of France flying the jet I fly and stuck with I phone ; )
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 26th May 2012 at 08:16.
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With power comes responsibility otherwise it becomes misuse.
I have posted before that Crusaders can be so blinded by what they see as their ultimate goal that they do not see the people they trad on or abuse in that quest .GEP has appointed himself and been appointed as the forum
Amateur detective and will happily state that all the information he puts up in the forums is publicly available.
It was not made publicly available to
Be taken out of context and without permission and plastered into prune for anonymous individuals to play with and make all manner of insinuations and judgements from!
Golden Eagle pilot would not like his own details, personal or otherwise plastered on an anonymous forum.
Golden Eagle pilot will call forum
Members but only from a withheld number to protect his own rights to privacy!
He cares nothing of others rights,
That is sad as he is a good man blinded by the Crusade and protected by the moderator.
There are forum
Codes of conduct which are flouted by those in power in prune yet used against posters at will.
I hope everyone learns something from
That thread
GEP yes if you have concerns go to the correct authorities with your information!
If you fail go again and again but don't allow people to be put into a home made court for ridicule and judgement by a bunch of anonymous people!
What makes you think you have the moral right to do that?
Pace
I have posted before that Crusaders can be so blinded by what they see as their ultimate goal that they do not see the people they trad on or abuse in that quest .GEP has appointed himself and been appointed as the forum
Amateur detective and will happily state that all the information he puts up in the forums is publicly available.
It was not made publicly available to
Be taken out of context and without permission and plastered into prune for anonymous individuals to play with and make all manner of insinuations and judgements from!
Golden Eagle pilot would not like his own details, personal or otherwise plastered on an anonymous forum.
Golden Eagle pilot will call forum
Members but only from a withheld number to protect his own rights to privacy!
He cares nothing of others rights,
That is sad as he is a good man blinded by the Crusade and protected by the moderator.
There are forum
Codes of conduct which are flouted by those in power in prune yet used against posters at will.
I hope everyone learns something from
That thread
GEP yes if you have concerns go to the correct authorities with your information!
If you fail go again and again but don't allow people to be put into a home made court for ridicule and judgement by a bunch of anonymous people!
What makes you think you have the moral right to do that?
Pace
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Well said pace. I agree totally. I hadn't read the thread until I saw this one, and have to say that I'm deeply uncomfortable with its contents. Someone's medical conditions should not be exposed in a thread like that and it was unnecessary to achieve the threads
Not to worry, she might be a little poorly, can't give any details, she will tell you she is fine - so little point in asking her before a flight, might be worth a PM.
Just a small question - has Indy subsequent to the post denied to anyone that she had the Angioplasty? Has she denied her flying activities? Has she denied using her aircraft after the ARC expired (flight from the same airfield to the same airfield, so before anyone says anything not a positioning flight)? Has she told anyone since the post that her medical is in fact valid and therefore her activities were legal and safe?
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It should be remembered that angioplasty is a procedure that is ONLY ever done to help someone with a very serious life threatening condition
What this person discussed with their doctor is not our concern. Perhaps the angiplasty was a recommendation rather than an emergency treatment? Who knows and frankly who cares. The most likely time for complications to arise following this surgery is in the first could of weeks following the op. I am sure there are statistics to show this.
Finally, as these are anonymous forums, readers have no real idea about the OPs real motivation. For all we know it could be for their own personal financial gain?!
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Finally, as these are anonymous forums, readers have no real idea about the OPs real motivation. For all we know it could be for their own personal financial gain?!
In addition to that it might be worth doing a little reading before posting, or even ask a doctor or AME for their thoughts - I did both...
A starting point might be: Coronary angioplasty - Why it is necessary - NHS Choices
Also the CAA opinion seems different to yours, hence why they declare the person medically unfit for 6 months minimum before considering the person fit for a European class 3 medical
Its treated by the CAA as in the same class of issues as a heart attack or coronary bypass surgery. If I followed your argument through these would also be a minor issue requiring little more than a couple of weeks before resuming flying.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1943/Coron...20Algo0609.pdf
Last edited by goldeneaglepilot; 26th May 2012 at 11:46.