RT etiquette - Another Stupid Question
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RT etiquette - Another Stupid Question
My question is the following: Is it considered helpful or pushy or at worst breaching RT rules by offering the CT folks a jump on what they are going to say? I probably should reiterate I am new to UK flying, I hold a FAA PPL and 95% of my flying has been in and out US class Delta and Charlie fields usually underneath Class Bravo in metro LA and San Francisco.
Specifically, when approaching my then home field of Santa Monica (a fairly busy GA field) there was usually 5 to 10 other aircraft operating and the CT was quite busy. It was fairly routine for approaching pilots to anticipate the controllers instructions based on instructions to previous traffic and make that anticipated traffic advisory part of the initial RT request, i.e.
The standard procedural RT would go something like this:
ME: " XX Tower, Nxxxx over (vrp xxx) at 1500 with (ATIS X ) inbound for full stop landing
CT: " NXXXX make right traffic for 21, report downwind abeam the numbers"
ME:" XX Tower, Nxxxx will make right traffic for 21, reporting downwind abeam the numbers"
The expedited practice frequently used to keep the frequency clear would be as follows:
ME: "XX Tower Nxxxx over( VRP xxx) at 1500 with (ATIS X) inbound for full stop landing request right traffic for 21 ,reporting downwind abeam the numbers"
CT " Nxxxx request approved"
Would this be acceptable here in the UK, or would it go over like a sh*t in the jacuzzi?
Based on my last "stupid question" post, please allow me a few minutes to baton down the hatches and assume a defensive posture for the inevitable beating coming my way. Also, in anticipation of some of the more tut tutting responses, I have viewed both the Oxford VFR RT Comms + UK Supplement vids.
Specifically, when approaching my then home field of Santa Monica (a fairly busy GA field) there was usually 5 to 10 other aircraft operating and the CT was quite busy. It was fairly routine for approaching pilots to anticipate the controllers instructions based on instructions to previous traffic and make that anticipated traffic advisory part of the initial RT request, i.e.
The standard procedural RT would go something like this:
ME: " XX Tower, Nxxxx over (vrp xxx) at 1500 with (ATIS X ) inbound for full stop landing
CT: " NXXXX make right traffic for 21, report downwind abeam the numbers"
ME:" XX Tower, Nxxxx will make right traffic for 21, reporting downwind abeam the numbers"
The expedited practice frequently used to keep the frequency clear would be as follows:
ME: "XX Tower Nxxxx over( VRP xxx) at 1500 with (ATIS X) inbound for full stop landing request right traffic for 21 ,reporting downwind abeam the numbers"
CT " Nxxxx request approved"
Would this be acceptable here in the UK, or would it go over like a sh*t in the jacuzzi?
Based on my last "stupid question" post, please allow me a few minutes to baton down the hatches and assume a defensive posture for the inevitable beating coming my way. Also, in anticipation of some of the more tut tutting responses, I have viewed both the Oxford VFR RT Comms + UK Supplement vids.
I agree with Neil, whilst apparently being helpful, you don't know what else ATC is up to at that moment, so they invariably prefer the initial placeholder call.
G
G
Yes, I've heard that also, but I've also seen some controllers get very frustrated at it. Try it at Cranfield sometime and see what sort of earful they give you*.
A small add-on can be helpful, for example...
"Popham Radio, G-ABCD, inbound"
"Brize Zone, G-ABCD, for basic service and zone crossing"
Because without asking anything of them, it gives the controller a heads up about what you're going to be asking for. But even this is somewhat non-standard and I'd only use it if the bandwidth is quiet. If it's busy,
"Farnborough Radar, G-ABCD"
is enough, and no more.
The only exception where I'd give a full message straight off is an emergency call. But in that case, "Mayday - Mayday - Mayday" or "Pan-pan pan-pan pan-pan" takes long enough to give the controller a chance to put down the phone or his coffee mug and pick up his pencil. Plus, anybody inconvenienced by a genuine emergency can jolly well live with it.
G
* N.B. I heard a controller make a brief joke on RT whilst I was teaching at EGTC the other day. A quite unique experience which unsettled me greatly. However, they restored honour at the end of the sortie by bollocking my student for landing a bit too late and fast to turn of at Charlie, so normal grumpiness was properly restored.
A small add-on can be helpful, for example...
"Popham Radio, G-ABCD, inbound"
"Brize Zone, G-ABCD, for basic service and zone crossing"
Because without asking anything of them, it gives the controller a heads up about what you're going to be asking for. But even this is somewhat non-standard and I'd only use it if the bandwidth is quiet. If it's busy,
"Farnborough Radar, G-ABCD"
is enough, and no more.
The only exception where I'd give a full message straight off is an emergency call. But in that case, "Mayday - Mayday - Mayday" or "Pan-pan pan-pan pan-pan" takes long enough to give the controller a chance to put down the phone or his coffee mug and pick up his pencil. Plus, anybody inconvenienced by a genuine emergency can jolly well live with it.
G
* N.B. I heard a controller make a brief joke on RT whilst I was teaching at EGTC the other day. A quite unique experience which unsettled me greatly. However, they restored honour at the end of the sortie by bollocking my student for landing a bit too late and fast to turn of at Charlie, so normal grumpiness was properly restored.
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Apologies for thread drift, but could not let Ghengis' postscript pass; he wrote:
* N.B. I heard a controller make a brief joke on RT whilst I was teaching at EGTC the other day. A quite unique experience which unsettled me greatly. However, they restored honour at the end of the sortie by bollocking my student for landing a bit too late and fast to turn of at Charlie, so normal grumpiness was properly restored.
I did my first solo at EGTC (Cranfield) a few years ago, landed on 21 a tiny bit long but too late to exit at Charlie, so I announced I was exiting from Echo. I now know that I should have requested this rather than gone ahead and done it.
Probably why I never got a "congratulations" or a "well done" from the tower!
* N.B. I heard a controller make a brief joke on RT whilst I was teaching at EGTC the other day. A quite unique experience which unsettled me greatly. However, they restored honour at the end of the sortie by bollocking my student for landing a bit too late and fast to turn of at Charlie, so normal grumpiness was properly restored.
I did my first solo at EGTC (Cranfield) a few years ago, landed on 21 a tiny bit long but too late to exit at Charlie, so I announced I was exiting from Echo. I now know that I should have requested this rather than gone ahead and done it.
Probably why I never got a "congratulations" or a "well done" from the tower!
I did my first solo at EGTC (Cranfield) a few years ago, landed on 21 a tiny bit long but too late to exit at Charlie, so I announced I was exiting from Echo. I now know that I should have requested this rather than gone ahead and done it.
Probably why I never got a "congratulations" or a "well done" from the tower!
Probably why I never got a "congratulations" or a "well done" from the tower!
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Bear in mind that in the U.S. 99% of pilots are english native speakers who will understand abbreviated and non-standard communications pretty well. Here in Europe, less than 10 percent are native speakers, on the rest of us English has been forced as communications language. A lot of pilots have enough difficulty with standard communications already (ICAO Level 4 obviously does not mean a lot) and will be totally cut-off by anything else. Therefore stick to the standard and everything will be fine. The time you save by abbreviating will be needed two times for explaining the one foreigner in the circuit what's going on around him.
And the fact that places like Amsterdam, Paris and Frankfurt (who rank high among the busiest airports in the world) function like clockworks clearly shows that standard ICAO phraseaology is perfectly up to the job.
And the fact that places like Amsterdam, Paris and Frankfurt (who rank high among the busiest airports in the world) function like clockworks clearly shows that standard ICAO phraseaology is perfectly up to the job.
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Hi Piperboy,
Genghis has it right but it can depend on the individual airport in odd cases.
Your local airfield to the south west only has AG radio so while you are talking to the radio operator, remember the calls are for the benefit of all the traffic in the area so position reports after the initial "heads up" call are important.
Initial call for departure by all means say "N**** Understand runway 27 right hand QNH 1020 taxiing C"
The large international airport 30 miles further south wants to know you are arriving or transiting before you fly either by flightplan or phone otherwise you may be orbiting 'till they make up a flight strip.
They should already have your flight strip so the initial call will be "XX approach, Maule N**** with information A" (From the ATIS). The ATIS actually asks for the initial call in that format.
Individual airports can have their own quirky rules but that is what the three major Scottish airports ask for.
D.O.
Genghis has it right but it can depend on the individual airport in odd cases.
Your local airfield to the south west only has AG radio so while you are talking to the radio operator, remember the calls are for the benefit of all the traffic in the area so position reports after the initial "heads up" call are important.
Initial call for departure by all means say "N**** Understand runway 27 right hand QNH 1020 taxiing C"
The large international airport 30 miles further south wants to know you are arriving or transiting before you fly either by flightplan or phone otherwise you may be orbiting 'till they make up a flight strip.
They should already have your flight strip so the initial call will be "XX approach, Maule N**** with information A" (From the ATIS). The ATIS actually asks for the initial call in that format.
Individual airports can have their own quirky rules but that is what the three major Scottish airports ask for.
D.O.
Piperboy
I suggest you learn the UK procedures which are quite different to those in the USA. When you have learned them, stick to them. It is called Discipline not Etiquette.
I suggest you learn the UK procedures which are quite different to those in the USA. When you have learned them, stick to them. It is called Discipline not Etiquette.
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I did my first solo at EGTC (Cranfield) a few years ago, landed on 21 a tiny bit long but too late to exit at Charlie, so I announced I was exiting from Echo. I now know that I should have requested this rather than gone ahead and done it.
If ATC doesn't want you to take a specific exit, for whatever reason, it's up to them to inform you about it ASAP, preferably well before you turn final.
The only time you do need to ask permission is when you want to backtrack to an exit you've already passed. And of course it's bad form to slow down to a slow taxi speed when the nearest exit is still quite a distance away. Better let the aircraft roll at a high but managable and safe speed. (Taildraggers and such being the obvious exception due to their poorer ground handling characteristics.)
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Hmmm
Whopity
Name = Who Pity,
Babbling on about "discipline with a capital "D"
Location = Europe
Hmmm, Is the exact location in "Europe" a large industrialised country in the North that is sometimes referred to as the" Vaterland" per chance?
I suggest you learn the UK procedures which are quite different to those in the USA. When you have learned them, stick to them. It is called Discipline not Etiquette.
Name = Who Pity,
Babbling on about "discipline with a capital "D"
Location = Europe
Hmmm, Is the exact location in "Europe" a large industrialised country in the North that is sometimes referred to as the" Vaterland" per chance?
Thread Starter
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Well Jan if you think not, then I would have to put my money on Austria or Northern Italy to place or show in the jerk sweepstakes
I do not think.
I know.
Having had the pleasure to visit this gentleman at home.
And you'll excuse me to bite my tongue for not writing something along the lines of "the USA owning 70% of the world's G/A fleet doesn't disagree with their owning 90% of the world's stupidity". You'd be surprised to learn the high degree of authority Whopity has in aviation, not to mention his nationality. Which is of course totally irrelevant, too.
I know.
Having had the pleasure to visit this gentleman at home.
And you'll excuse me to bite my tongue for not writing something along the lines of "the USA owning 70% of the world's G/A fleet doesn't disagree with their owning 90% of the world's stupidity". You'd be surprised to learn the high degree of authority Whopity has in aviation, not to mention his nationality. Which is of course totally irrelevant, too.
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Well if “high degree of authority” impresses you, it’s certainly no surprise you’re hanging out with No Pity judging by his directives. And if “nationality is irrelevant” why stereotype Americans as 90% of them being stupid? I always defined stupidity as making incredibly bad decisions that one ends up losing big time from. Move on my friend your barking up the wrong tree here.
Enjoy your flying and be safe
Enjoy your flying and be safe