Probably a really stupid question
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mary meagher.
Please don't attempt to make me feel ashamed that I did not do the X country the 50K, 300, Diamond etc. I got as far as the silver height, & enjoyed every minute, however I found it tedious repairing winches & tractors more than flying.
I have nothing against glider pilots per se, except the fact that many of them, apparently including yourself, seem to regard power pilots as some lower form of aviatic life.
Your bad experience of power pilots is nothing to do with the vast majority of powered a/c or pilots.
If power pilots were such bad aviators generally then shouldn't the authorities be advised & something done about it? Are powered a/c bumping into each other every five minutes?
This seems to be a them & us situation & I do not wish to be in one of those.
We are all in the aviation business, we all use the same atmosphere. If you have a problem with a power pilot who didn't see you, did you discuss it with them? Did you file an MOR? Was it a reportable airmiss?
I once met a glider head on during climb out at a licenced airfield, who dissapeared into cloud at 1200ft over the runway. Legal? prob not, safe? prob not. Good airmanship? deff not in my opinion. I mentioned it's position to my AG as a caution & haven't mentioned it since, 3yrs.
When I was gliding we were encouraged by some instructors to enter Blue 22 as often as possible, in the hope (which worked) that it would be moved a bit to the right. Is this good airmanship?
Enjoy your gliding & your tugging but please stop sniping at other forms of aviation. Glider pilots can't walk on water any more than skydivers.
Please don't attempt to make me feel ashamed that I did not do the X country the 50K, 300, Diamond etc. I got as far as the silver height, & enjoyed every minute, however I found it tedious repairing winches & tractors more than flying.
I have nothing against glider pilots per se, except the fact that many of them, apparently including yourself, seem to regard power pilots as some lower form of aviatic life.
Your bad experience of power pilots is nothing to do with the vast majority of powered a/c or pilots.
If power pilots were such bad aviators generally then shouldn't the authorities be advised & something done about it? Are powered a/c bumping into each other every five minutes?
This seems to be a them & us situation & I do not wish to be in one of those.
We are all in the aviation business, we all use the same atmosphere. If you have a problem with a power pilot who didn't see you, did you discuss it with them? Did you file an MOR? Was it a reportable airmiss?
I once met a glider head on during climb out at a licenced airfield, who dissapeared into cloud at 1200ft over the runway. Legal? prob not, safe? prob not. Good airmanship? deff not in my opinion. I mentioned it's position to my AG as a caution & haven't mentioned it since, 3yrs.
When I was gliding we were encouraged by some instructors to enter Blue 22 as often as possible, in the hope (which worked) that it would be moved a bit to the right. Is this good airmanship?
Enjoy your gliding & your tugging but please stop sniping at other forms of aviation. Glider pilots can't walk on water any more than skydivers.
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Originally Posted by welkyboy
The Rules of the Air were derived from the Rules of Shipping, which were dreamt up well before cars were invented......
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Not fundamentally different at all really, apart from the third dimension.
Although slightly different phraseology has evolved in the two environments:
- an aircraft with right of way is required to hold its course and speed;
- nevertheless the overriding duty of the aircraft captain even if he has right of way is to avoid a collison;
which to my mind mirrors the maritime scenario.
Although slightly different phraseology has evolved in the two environments:
- an aircraft with right of way is required to hold its course and speed;
- nevertheless the overriding duty of the aircraft captain even if he has right of way is to avoid a collison;
which to my mind mirrors the maritime scenario.
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Are powered a/c bumping into each other every five minutes?
C402 versus Rand, Coventry, Aug 08, five dead;
Grob versus Grob, near Cardiff, Feb 09, four dead;
Grob versus glider, not far from Benson, June 09, two dead;
Mooney versus Rans, IOW, Sept 10, two dead;
DA40 versus Rans, Shoreham, July 11, one dead;
Pitts versus Taylorcraft, Leicester, Dec 11, one dead.
Six collisions in the last three and a half years, a total of 15 fatalities...
No discussion yet of 'defensive flying'... I never, ever, operate OCAS under cloud streets, or fly over obvious big sources of thermal lift, or at ridge-soaring heights along ridges in conditions favourable to the production of ridge lift... But I only know not to do those things because I have been a cross-country glider pilot...
There are things I do when flying powered aircraft, too, to guard against meeting other powered aircraft, such as flying in IMC on otherwise nice days...
Last edited by frontlefthamster; 24th Feb 2012 at 19:49.
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Really good discussion here and I'm glad to see we've come full circle from simply obey the rules, to look out and make a reasoned decision in the time allowed.
Piperboy. See what you started
you'll get more sympathy from me next time we speak. I bet that's got you wondering!
D.O.
Piperboy. See what you started
you'll get more sympathy from me next time we speak. I bet that's got you wondering!D.O.
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No discussion yet of 'defensive flying'... I never, ever, operate OCAS under cloud streets, or fly over obvious big sources of thermal lift, or at ridge-soaring heights along ridges in conditions favourable to the production of ridge lift... But I only know not to do those things because I have been a cross-country glider pilot...
It is a big sky & power pilots have the right to fly where they like OCAS.
As for defensive flying, I am aware of those conditions/places & treat them with considerable caution, I am not however going to avoid big chunks of sky on the off chance of a glider being there.
I may as well stay on the ground in case a power pilot is flying with his eyes down.
Until such time as power pilots are forced by the rules to learn the gliding "system" (which I think would be a good idea) there is obviously going to be a conflict.
We, at our flying club, attempted to organise a day out at the gliding club. Unfortunately not a lot of interest. Personally I think it would be a good thing.
Six collisions in three & a half years!! How many hours/flights without collisions?
I know six is six too many. Compare it with driving, how many crashes/hours?
We may as well give up & hide in a wad of cotton wool.
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Couple of questions come to mind, perhaps frontlefthamster can answer....
How many hours are required nowadays for a PPL to remain current?
Is an annual check ride required ?or is it every 2 years?
How many hours do PPL's actually do above and beyond the bare minimum?
With the cost of fuel where it is, only the wealthy will be able to keep it up.
The thing that worries me most about spam cans, Tobagos and the odd BRS Cirrus is that the man (are any at all owned by women, I wonder?) who has earned enough money to buy one probably doesn't have enough time to stay current or to enjoy it. And if you think you can use a SELP for your business travel, sooner or later you will discover the shortcomings.
No, seriously, we find in the gliding world that men (usually men, alas) don't find the time or the money to take up the sport in a serious cross country glider until they are approaching an age when the learning curve has about flattened out completely; yet being ex captains of industry, it is not easy sometimes to make these latecomers sensible of their limitations.....
How many hours are required nowadays for a PPL to remain current?
Is an annual check ride required ?or is it every 2 years?
How many hours do PPL's actually do above and beyond the bare minimum?
With the cost of fuel where it is, only the wealthy will be able to keep it up.
The thing that worries me most about spam cans, Tobagos and the odd BRS Cirrus is that the man (are any at all owned by women, I wonder?) who has earned enough money to buy one probably doesn't have enough time to stay current or to enjoy it. And if you think you can use a SELP for your business travel, sooner or later you will discover the shortcomings.
No, seriously, we find in the gliding world that men (usually men, alas) don't find the time or the money to take up the sport in a serious cross country glider until they are approaching an age when the learning curve has about flattened out completely; yet being ex captains of industry, it is not easy sometimes to make these latecomers sensible of their limitations.....
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How many hours are required nowadays for a PPL to remain current?
But if you don't do the 12hrs, you just have to fly with an Examiner to renew the PPL.
Is an annual check ride required ?or is it every 2 years?
How many hours do PPL's actually do above and beyond the bare minimum?
With the cost of fuel where it is, only the wealthy will be able to keep it up.
).
The thing that worries me most about spam cans, Tobagos and the odd BRS Cirrus is that the man (are any at all owned by women, I wonder?)
>who has earned enough money to buy one probably doesn't have enough time to stay current or to enjoy it.
One of the tricks of GA (and probably most other activities) is to be able to do it at a level which brings enjoyment, while being able to easily afford it.
What I think separates GA from most other human activities (at least those I know about) is that in GA there are many more people who really struggle to do it, despite quite obviously not being able to afford it. Flying does deliver a great return (as we all know) but it sure isn't cheap, and this seems to be why so many struggle so hard.
>And if you think you can use a SELP for your business travel, sooner or later you will discover the shortcomings.
No, seriously, we find in the gliding world that men (usually men, alas) don't find the time or the money to take up the sport in a serious cross country glider until they are approaching an age when the learning curve has about flattened out completely; yet being ex captains of industry, it is not easy sometimes to make these latecomers sensible of their limitations.....
It's a bit like windsurfing; something I was doing 1985-2011. I gave it up because the hassle (loading up the trailer, etc) outweighed the fun, and I never got good enough to really enjoy it (=carve gybes). In that, you get the all-weekend--on-the-beach people, and the quick-sail-then-vanish people. Gliding is the former; powered GA is more the latter. But that's a pity because powered GA would benefit hugely from a "community" and a social scene... but that's another well worn debate
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Common sense will tell you that the rule about turning to the right is based on two facts;
1 that this gives you the best visual position on the assumption that you are flying on the left seat of the aircraft.
2. it is better for two aircraft in this situation to move in the same direction relative to their individual line of flight.
Having said that, and having been in that situation, it can be very disconcerting to fly what appears to be across the path of another aircraft. Turning left seems to feel like 'turning away' if you are in the left seat.
1 that this gives you the best visual position on the assumption that you are flying on the left seat of the aircraft.
2. it is better for two aircraft in this situation to move in the same direction relative to their individual line of flight.
Having said that, and having been in that situation, it can be very disconcerting to fly what appears to be across the path of another aircraft. Turning left seems to feel like 'turning away' if you are in the left seat.
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... plus instructors tell me I'm not the only one who is much better at steep left turns than steep right turns. However in a head-on I hope I would turn instinctively to the right ... but I don't know for sure, because it's not something I've ever practiced.
I have some sympathy for the OP - part of the PPL exams in Britain is to learn the structure of the AIP and where to find information. Without knowing about that, you could end up looking through all manner of acts of parliament etc. and still not be quite certain that you had the most up to date information.
Not speaking about the poster specifically, a lot of people aren't very good at using search engines either. For example, as few as 10% may know how to use control-f to find something in a document.
Crazy: 90 Percent of People Don't Know How to Use CTRL+F - Alexis Madrigal - Technology - The Atlantic
~~~~
Having come to my PPL from a hang-gliding background, I have to say that I didn't see a great difference in the calibre of pilots from different backgrounds. Perhaps a few of the paraglider pilots were a bit rasher, but by and large if you'd mixed up all my hang-gliding buddies with the people I met doing my PPL, they'd have gotten on well and found plenty to talk about. I can think of a few mildly reckless folk from both camps - admittedly more from the hang-gliding fraternity.
A big difference between hang/paragliders and powered aircraft is that it really takes quite a lot of work before you get from the slope-soaring stage to the point where you can fly long distances cross country. I never got there. Anyway, if you're 30 miles from a hang-gliding site and meet a hang-glider, chances are the pilot is quite experienced and flies regularly. If you're 30 miles from an airport and meet a light aircraft, it doesn't say much about the pilot's experience or competence - could be a 25 hour pilot on a solo nav. And certainly, there's a lot more reason to keep your head in the cockpit whilst flying a light aircraft as opposed to a hang-glider. I don't know much about fixed wing gliding, but I would have guessed the same may apply (probably to a lesser degree?)
Another difference is that mid-air collisions are more likely for glider pilots than they are for powered pilots, perhaps simply because gliders are more likely to be clumped together on the same hill or in the same thermal.
From 1995-2004 there were 5 midair collisions involving powered aircraft out of a total of 102 accidents (5%) and 10 midair collisions involving gliders out of a total of 38 fatal glider accidents (25%) (both figures include one power/glider collision). To my surprise, there were relatively few foot-launched midair collisions (2/36). (regulatory review of general aviation in the UK, report to the CAA board 2006 www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/RegReview.pdf).
Anyway, if glider pilots are more attuned to the risks of mid-air collisions than powered pilots, perhaps it could be because they're simply a much bigger issue for them, and because the remedy (see and avoid) may work better for them due to lower speeds (I'm aware that some gliders can be very small and very fast).
~~~~
I'm surprised by Mary's comment regarding male powered pilots. There are very few woman hang-glider pilots about, and only slightly more paraglider pilots. My observation had been that a much higher proportion of powered pilots seem to be women. I can't speak for gliding whatsoever.
Not speaking about the poster specifically, a lot of people aren't very good at using search engines either. For example, as few as 10% may know how to use control-f to find something in a document.
Crazy: 90 Percent of People Don't Know How to Use CTRL+F - Alexis Madrigal - Technology - The Atlantic
~~~~
Having come to my PPL from a hang-gliding background, I have to say that I didn't see a great difference in the calibre of pilots from different backgrounds. Perhaps a few of the paraglider pilots were a bit rasher, but by and large if you'd mixed up all my hang-gliding buddies with the people I met doing my PPL, they'd have gotten on well and found plenty to talk about. I can think of a few mildly reckless folk from both camps - admittedly more from the hang-gliding fraternity.
A big difference between hang/paragliders and powered aircraft is that it really takes quite a lot of work before you get from the slope-soaring stage to the point where you can fly long distances cross country. I never got there. Anyway, if you're 30 miles from a hang-gliding site and meet a hang-glider, chances are the pilot is quite experienced and flies regularly. If you're 30 miles from an airport and meet a light aircraft, it doesn't say much about the pilot's experience or competence - could be a 25 hour pilot on a solo nav. And certainly, there's a lot more reason to keep your head in the cockpit whilst flying a light aircraft as opposed to a hang-glider. I don't know much about fixed wing gliding, but I would have guessed the same may apply (probably to a lesser degree?)
Another difference is that mid-air collisions are more likely for glider pilots than they are for powered pilots, perhaps simply because gliders are more likely to be clumped together on the same hill or in the same thermal.
From 1995-2004 there were 5 midair collisions involving powered aircraft out of a total of 102 accidents (5%) and 10 midair collisions involving gliders out of a total of 38 fatal glider accidents (25%) (both figures include one power/glider collision). To my surprise, there were relatively few foot-launched midair collisions (2/36). (regulatory review of general aviation in the UK, report to the CAA board 2006 www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/RegReview.pdf).
Anyway, if glider pilots are more attuned to the risks of mid-air collisions than powered pilots, perhaps it could be because they're simply a much bigger issue for them, and because the remedy (see and avoid) may work better for them due to lower speeds (I'm aware that some gliders can be very small and very fast).
~~~~
I'm surprised by Mary's comment regarding male powered pilots. There are very few woman hang-glider pilots about, and only slightly more paraglider pilots. My observation had been that a much higher proportion of powered pilots seem to be women. I can't speak for gliding whatsoever.
Last edited by abgd; 24th Feb 2012 at 22:40.
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One has to remember that since nearly everybody chucks in flying shortly after getting their PPL, the community you actually see active at any instant are mostly "old-timers".
I did my JAA PPL in 2000/2001 and we never did notams, the AIP, or anything whatever to do with the internet.
And I am a very "young" pilot, relative to the bulk of the pilot community I see when I go flying.
Sure one needs internet competence to fly nowadays (apart from trivial local popups where you look out of the window, and stay in the local area, and fly without a transponder the rest of the time ) but it has been poorly covered during all the years when it could have been covered i.e. from the late 1990s onwards. And you have the wider issue of how to teach someone of say 60+ who has never used a computer to suddenly start, just so they can fly.
Internet notams date back to 2003 in the UK, and the notam system was impractical (for pilots venturing outside the flying school environment, or the local area) before then.
Re midairs, they fortunately are very rare, and fortunately the scenario is quite predictable statistically: in or near the circuit, and mostly below ~1500ft. The popularly cited risks (overflying VORs, overflying VRPs, flying in/through glider sites, etc) are not supported statistically, and the most popularly cited and perhaps the most instinctively/emotionally worrying one (flying in IMC OCAS) is not supported at all, with zero midairs since WW2.
I did my JAA PPL in 2000/2001 and we never did notams, the AIP, or anything whatever to do with the internet.
And I am a very "young" pilot, relative to the bulk of the pilot community I see when I go flying.
Sure one needs internet competence to fly nowadays (apart from trivial local popups where you look out of the window, and stay in the local area, and fly without a transponder the rest of the time
) but it has been poorly covered during all the years when it could have been covered i.e. from the late 1990s onwards. And you have the wider issue of how to teach someone of say 60+ who has never used a computer to suddenly start, just so they can fly.Internet notams date back to 2003 in the UK, and the notam system was impractical (for pilots venturing outside the flying school environment, or the local area) before then.
Re midairs, they fortunately are very rare, and fortunately the scenario is quite predictable statistically: in or near the circuit, and mostly below ~1500ft. The popularly cited risks (overflying VORs, overflying VRPs, flying in/through glider sites, etc) are not supported statistically, and the most popularly cited and perhaps the most instinctively/emotionally worrying one (flying in IMC OCAS) is not supported at all, with zero midairs since WW2.
Earlier in this thread, dont overfill said:
Coincidentally, during my recent holiday in NZ, I completed all the paperwork and the BFR that were required in order to convert from a Canadian PPL to a Kiwi one. No requirement for ANY exams, not even NZ air law!
Now before anyone jumps in, I should point out that I have taken the time to study air law and ATC procedures.
pb84, keep asking the "stupid questions". I often find out something new when researching an answer and threads such as this also give me hours of entertainment.
No, he probably didn't pass a UK air law exam! Nor do most of the visitors to the UK.
Now before anyone jumps in, I should point out that I have taken the time to study air law and ATC procedures.
pb84, keep asking the "stupid questions". I often find out something new when researching an answer and threads such as this also give me hours of entertainment.
Avoid imitations
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Since when was being computer literate part of a PPL?
Unless we are talking in biscuit code?