C152 Landing
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C152 Landing
Hey all, hope I get a simple and straightforward answer here.
I am about to go solo, and up until now in my circuits, my instructor has controls the nose wheel when we land, so I am not getting the right feel of what happens. I am quite happy that I can manage everything else in the circuit, but what I want to know is -
When you are flaring and about 3' from the runway, just about to land, when the nose wheel touches down, does it castor and if so do you have to control it with the pedals.
I know this sounds like an easy question, but I cant find the answer anywhere and wont be flying for another 10 days, and want to piece everything together for before I go solo.
Thanks in advance for your help
I am about to go solo, and up until now in my circuits, my instructor has controls the nose wheel when we land, so I am not getting the right feel of what happens. I am quite happy that I can manage everything else in the circuit, but what I want to know is -
When you are flaring and about 3' from the runway, just about to land, when the nose wheel touches down, does it castor and if so do you have to control it with the pedals.
I know this sounds like an easy question, but I cant find the answer anywhere and wont be flying for another 10 days, and want to piece everything together for before I go solo.
Thanks in advance for your help
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A castering nosewheel means you have no control over it - it's just like the wheel on a shopping trolley, no connection to the position of the pedals at all.
Once you are down, if landing, you should use of combination of aerodynamic control using the rudder and differetial braking to keep the aircraft straight. If doing a touch and go just leave the brakes alone and use the rudder to keep the thing straight. This will be easier once you have full power applied giving a better airflow over the rudder.
If you go on to fly something with nosewheel steering, the pedals do steer the nose so you have a lot more control during the ground roll.
Once you are down, if landing, you should use of combination of aerodynamic control using the rudder and differetial braking to keep the aircraft straight. If doing a touch and go just leave the brakes alone and use the rudder to keep the thing straight. This will be easier once you have full power applied giving a better airflow over the rudder.
If you go on to fly something with nosewheel steering, the pedals do steer the nose so you have a lot more control during the ground roll.
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Tell your instructor to get his feet completely off the pedals. If you're about to go solo, he should not be interfering with the controls at all. Not even following through. If he still does that, then either you're not ready for solo by far, or he's not instructing properly.
The beauty of the "land-o-matic" nosewheel steering is that the aircraft will essentially track straight ahead on the landing roll, assuming you had the fuselage and the flight path aligned with the runway centerline in the first place. There is plenty time for the instructor to move his feet off the floor and on the pedals if you do something stupid.
Now if you were flying a tailwheel aircraft, I can imagine that the instructor would want to be able to take control quickly and thus have his feet on, or very near the pedals. But in a nosewheel aircraft with a student who is about to go first solo, no way.
The beauty of the "land-o-matic" nosewheel steering is that the aircraft will essentially track straight ahead on the landing roll, assuming you had the fuselage and the flight path aligned with the runway centerline in the first place. There is plenty time for the instructor to move his feet off the floor and on the pedals if you do something stupid.
Now if you were flying a tailwheel aircraft, I can imagine that the instructor would want to be able to take control quickly and thus have his feet on, or very near the pedals. But in a nosewheel aircraft with a student who is about to go first solo, no way.
Get a new instructor, at a different school.
You should be fully controlling the aeroplane well before solo.
Any instructor and school of any quality will have made you read the Pilots Operating Handbook, which describes the controls in detail.
Any instructor of any quality will be briefing you properly on all of this before flight, and debriefing you afterwards so that you understand it all.
Any well run school will be insisting on all of this and monitoring the instructor's standards.
You are not being properly taught and supervised, and the school is not supervising your instructor. Stop wasting your money, even if you pass your PPL at this institution, you will be dangerous.
(And the C152, along I think with all of the other nosewheel Cessnas, has a steerable nosewheel, not many common aeroplanes have a castoring nosewheel - the Grumman AA1/AA5 family are the main exception.)
G
You should be fully controlling the aeroplane well before solo.
Any instructor and school of any quality will have made you read the Pilots Operating Handbook, which describes the controls in detail.
Any instructor of any quality will be briefing you properly on all of this before flight, and debriefing you afterwards so that you understand it all.
Any well run school will be insisting on all of this and monitoring the instructor's standards.
You are not being properly taught and supervised, and the school is not supervising your instructor. Stop wasting your money, even if you pass your PPL at this institution, you will be dangerous.
(And the C152, along I think with all of the other nosewheel Cessnas, has a steerable nosewheel, not many common aeroplanes have a castoring nosewheel - the Grumman AA1/AA5 family are the main exception.)
G
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A student's and an instructor's perception of when someone is "about to go solo" are very different.
The OP hasn't been particularly clear on his flying experience, and may not in fact be definately going solo on the next flight, so don't be so quick to burn the instructor.
It is a standard instructional technique to keep your feet on the pedals early on, only letting the student go without the saftely net when they are ready to do so, it's not for the student to judge it's the instructor.
Having said that, I would hope that if one of my students had a fundamental lack of understanding of how to control the aircraft during the ground roll, I would be able to pick this up and give advice rather than that student having to turn to an anonymous forum, so perhaps a chat with your instructor is in order to make sure you are on the same page. If not, a change of instructor may not be a bad thing. Ultimately you are paying £1xx for his time, so ask as many questions as you can.
Genghis - Do ALL cessna's have nosewheel steering? I've only got a handful of cessna hours from years back, but I'm sure the nosewheel was loose. I know you can do a full and free check of the rudder pedals on the ground without the nosewheel moving on both 152 and 172.
The OP hasn't been particularly clear on his flying experience, and may not in fact be definately going solo on the next flight, so don't be so quick to burn the instructor.
It is a standard instructional technique to keep your feet on the pedals early on, only letting the student go without the saftely net when they are ready to do so, it's not for the student to judge it's the instructor.
Having said that, I would hope that if one of my students had a fundamental lack of understanding of how to control the aircraft during the ground roll, I would be able to pick this up and give advice rather than that student having to turn to an anonymous forum, so perhaps a chat with your instructor is in order to make sure you are on the same page. If not, a change of instructor may not be a bad thing. Ultimately you are paying £1xx for his time, so ask as many questions as you can.
Genghis - Do ALL cessna's have nosewheel steering? I've only got a handful of cessna hours from years back, but I'm sure the nosewheel was loose. I know you can do a full and free check of the rudder pedals on the ground without the nosewheel moving on both 152 and 172.
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Leaving aside for the moment, the original poster's readiness for first solo, let's review the nosewheel system and geometry.
Well, not exactly. A castoring nosewheel with no steering cannot be directly controlled. A steerable nosewheel which castors, can be steered by the pilot, but will tend to castor if not steered. This would be the typical Cessna nosewheel system.
Look at a Cessna nosewheel with the plane parked. It slants forward, this is important. knowing that the steering is the freedom to rotate on the axis of the oleo suspension, and the fork arms do not cant aft (like a shopping cart wheel) or forward (like a bicycle), they are straight. Thus, the point on the tire, which corresponds to the center of steering rotation, is ahead of the point there the tire is contacting the ground. Thus the contact point, being behind the steering axis, tends to drag the wheel to follow the direction of motion (castor). The steering arms, which connect the pedals to the nosewheel have springs, which will allow the wheel to point differently than the pedals direct, though the compression of the spring tends it back to steer as desired by the pilot. Nosewheel Pipers I can think of do not have such a spring.
There are true full castoring only nosewheel planes which have no steering whatever, Grumman AA-1 through AA-5 series for example. Some brakes required.
When you and your instructor get further along in your training, and with suitable briefing before hand, try the following in the 152: With 10 flap, and into a gentle headwind, (on a grass runway, if you have a choice), and taking great care to not bang the tail tiwdown ring on the ground; hold the controls full back as you apply power for takeoff, and continue to hold it, until the nosewheel comes off the ground. Once off, let off a bit of the full back, to just hold the plane in that attitude. This will have happened by about 20MPH. Maintain steering with rudder only, it works perfectly fine, and you'll see that the nosewheel steering really does very little during a good takeoff. Oh, and be the way, you're about to do an excellent soft field takeoff too! Just don't bang the tail please!
A castering nosewheel means you have no control over it
Look at a Cessna nosewheel with the plane parked. It slants forward, this is important. knowing that the steering is the freedom to rotate on the axis of the oleo suspension, and the fork arms do not cant aft (like a shopping cart wheel) or forward (like a bicycle), they are straight. Thus, the point on the tire, which corresponds to the center of steering rotation, is ahead of the point there the tire is contacting the ground. Thus the contact point, being behind the steering axis, tends to drag the wheel to follow the direction of motion (castor). The steering arms, which connect the pedals to the nosewheel have springs, which will allow the wheel to point differently than the pedals direct, though the compression of the spring tends it back to steer as desired by the pilot. Nosewheel Pipers I can think of do not have such a spring.
There are true full castoring only nosewheel planes which have no steering whatever, Grumman AA-1 through AA-5 series for example. Some brakes required.
When you and your instructor get further along in your training, and with suitable briefing before hand, try the following in the 152: With 10 flap, and into a gentle headwind, (on a grass runway, if you have a choice), and taking great care to not bang the tail tiwdown ring on the ground; hold the controls full back as you apply power for takeoff, and continue to hold it, until the nosewheel comes off the ground. Once off, let off a bit of the full back, to just hold the plane in that attitude. This will have happened by about 20MPH. Maintain steering with rudder only, it works perfectly fine, and you'll see that the nosewheel steering really does very little during a good takeoff. Oh, and be the way, you're about to do an excellent soft field takeoff too! Just don't bang the tail please!
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I have to agree with all previous poster re. get another instructor. Although I suspect it's more that you 'think' they are on the pedals instead of actually doing it.
I'l go with it. A C152 or C172 for that matter, will travel in the direction that it is put onto the ground on the main wheels, unless rudder/brake is applied.
There is no more to say on this. Line it up and put it down.
I'l go with it. A C152 or C172 for that matter, will travel in the direction that it is put onto the ground on the main wheels, unless rudder/brake is applied.
There is no more to say on this. Line it up and put it down.
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Bin the instructor and get someone who knows what they are doing, to me it sounds like your instructor is lacking in two things, personal confidence in his own ability to teach and technical knowlage. I would also guess he spends all his time dreaming of the day he gets to fly an airbus.
With flying instruction at €180/ hour you can't afford to be subsidizing this sort of incompetence.
With flying instruction at €180/ hour you can't afford to be subsidizing this sort of incompetence.
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I'm in the "get another instructor" camp. A proper instructor will say "you have control" and mean it. That means no interference, no pushing, poking, adjusting, helping or what ever. If they want something done, they either ask you to do it or say "I have control" and after you have given them control, complete the task themselves. A good instructor will also have the confidence NOT to hover over the controls when you are flying.
As for your question regarding steering when landing, see if you can get this shown to you by an engineer - Press the tail down until you see the nosegear fully extend. Now move the nosewheel. It is disconnected from the steering and it can castor. It will be (well it should be) in this position when you first land which means that directional control is (and can only be) maintained by...
PM
(Remember what a crosswind will do to your aircraft... this should be covered in a briefing)
(...and don't forget what you should doing with the ailerons and control column after landing)
As for your question regarding steering when landing, see if you can get this shown to you by an engineer - Press the tail down until you see the nosegear fully extend. Now move the nosewheel. It is disconnected from the steering and it can castor. It will be (well it should be) in this position when you first land which means that directional control is (and can only be) maintained by...
PM
(Remember what a crosswind will do to your aircraft... this should be covered in a briefing)
(...and don't forget what you should doing with the ailerons and control column after landing)
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Get a new instructor, at a different school.
It could well be that he is nowhere near going solo (even if he is being told he is about ready to boost confidence) and that the Instructor is still in teaching and follow through mode?
Lets face it, if the student does not even know how the nose wheel works on a 152 are they anywhere near ready for solo.....
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Instructor is still in teaching and follow through mode?
There is only ever one person flying the aircraft. The is very limited value in taking individual controls because as we all know the effects are interlinked. You just end up building in problems and bug bears for later.
The other obvious thing is that the student hasn't understood the landing brief if it has been given at all.
Whats the back ground and experence level of your instructor?
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MJ, are you sersiously telleing me you have never followed through with a student!!?
I am not refering to two people flying the aircraft I am referring to the intervention point where you have to give input or risk a problem. I agree hovering over the controls or holding onto them does little to develop the student.
We are only hearing one side of the story hear but have immediatly started to blame the Instructor.............
I am not refering to two people flying the aircraft I am referring to the intervention point where you have to give input or risk a problem. I agree hovering over the controls or holding onto them does little to develop the student.
We are only hearing one side of the story hear but have immediatly started to blame the Instructor.............
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Nope. well I might have done in the early days learning my trade until I realised it was a particularly stupid and bad way of teaching.
Its hands on my knees, feet off the peddles, then "I have control" if I want it. Same in multicrew ops as well. There are instructors out there that cover everything. I don't know if its a confidence thing or a lack in thier own abilitys. But before you take control you should really be calling "go-around I say again go-around" then when they make a pigs ear of that you take it.
Circuit training I won't say anything either during the approach if its leading up to solo. In that situation though I am looking at if they can make the command call to Go-around off a bad approach. And the de-brief if I have to take control is mainly about why they didn't go-around. I actually get more of a buzz when students/FO's do bin a bad approach with zero input from me than if they wazz down the approach and pull off a greaser. Even if it shows thier PIC skills are better than their handling skills
Its hands on my knees, feet off the peddles, then "I have control" if I want it. Same in multicrew ops as well. There are instructors out there that cover everything. I don't know if its a confidence thing or a lack in thier own abilitys. But before you take control you should really be calling "go-around I say again go-around" then when they make a pigs ear of that you take it.
Circuit training I won't say anything either during the approach if its leading up to solo. In that situation though I am looking at if they can make the command call to Go-around off a bad approach. And the de-brief if I have to take control is mainly about why they didn't go-around. I actually get more of a buzz when students/FO's do bin a bad approach with zero input from me than if they wazz down the approach and pull off a greaser. Even if it shows thier PIC skills are better than their handling skills
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Since I'm completely fed up reading the immediate knee-jerk reaction "get a new instructor" thread after thread, I'm firmly in the "Why is it always the Instructor at fault?" camp